# Joseph's forgiving his wife's unfaithfulness & illegitimate son was the real miracle **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687 "2006-12-11T15:22:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/1 "2006-12-11T15:22:46Z")
[Interesting take on the genesis of Christian morals.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16116328/site/newsweek/). I’ve never considered it quite from that perspective. Joseph has always been sort of a peripheral character in the Christ story, but this sort of puts him, and his moral choice, front and center as the catalyst. It’s an interesting take on who the _real_ father of Christianity was. > [@](#): > > Dec. 18, 2006 issue - Sometime around the beginning of the Common Era, a nice Jewish girl comes to her fiancé with a problem. She is pregnant; he is not the father. The groom-to-be is understandably enraged. In his world, almost nothing brings more shame on a man and his family than a broken promise of virginity. Her explanation, that the baby was conceived by God, must have sounded implausible, desperate, even insane. On reflection, though, the man, who is profoundly decent—“righteous,” as the story goes—decides that he cannot bear to inflict upon the girl the rare (but wholly legal) punishment for such crimes, which is stoning. And so he resolves to handle the matter in his own way. He will “divorce her quietly.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/2 "2006-12-11T16:39:16Z")
It’s not that remarkable (within the context of Matthew’s story) since Joseph is constantly being harrassed by angels telling him what to do and what’s going on. he never really thinks that Mary was unfaithful so it isn’t accurate to say that he “forgives” it. The author seems to believe that (prior to Joseph being visited by an angel) his initial inclination to quietly divorce her rather than stone her was some kind of unusual act of kindness or charity o his part. In fact, that was the norm and it wasn’t even all that kind since it basically amounted to throwing her out on the streets with very limited options for survival. If Joseph really had been portrayed as forgiving a true infidelity and accepting a illegitimate child as his own, then the author might have a point, but since Joseph only makes his decisions after being told by God what to do, then I don’t think he deserves any brownie points for compassion or moral courage. The author of that article does ot seem particularly well informed about history or the Bible and makes a number of sweeping, overreaching statements. For instance: > [@](#): > > The Jewish family values that were prevalent in first-century Judea—the values of Mary and Joseph and of the young Jesus—became the values of Christianity, and of the regions of the world in which Christianity has long been a critical force. > > It all began with the habits and culture of Judaism. The emphasis on family, on sexual morality, on caring for one’s kith and kin—all were (and are) sacred Jewish traditions, and the transmission of those mores from a relative backwater of the Roman Empire in the first years of the Common Era to our own time is the unlikely result of Mary and Joseph’s parenting, the disciples’ failed apocalyptic hopes and, ultimately, the early Christians’ search for a way to survive once they realized the Second Coming was not as imminent as they first believed. > > \ > > The values of Jewish families were unique given the circumstances of the time. > > \ > > But Jewish devotion to family predates the Romans by thousands of years. Is all pretty much bullshit. Judaism itself doesn’t predate the Romans by “thousands of years” much less “Jewish devotion to the family.” Jewish familial and moral codes were not much different from those of the Romans or the Greeks and “Christian” family values derived as much, if not more from those cultures than from Judaism. Anyway, the Nativity myths are the product of Greek authors, not Jewish ones. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/3 "2006-12-11T17:20:08Z")
Its fairly revealing that this trite, and inaccurate, article (or sermonette) is foisted upon us by an organization that purports to give us the news. No wonder we’re stuck in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/4 "2006-12-11T17:28:07Z")
Darn sexists. Mary’s acceptance of what would happen is the ultimate role model in obedience and trust in God, and now Joseph’s action is being touted as the true miracle? Way to give a man all the credit! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/5 "2006-12-11T17:48:38Z")
I didn’t read the article as saying that Joseph’s forebearance was the true miracle, but maybe I didn’t read it closely enough. My reaction is “eh.” The fact that Christianity is based on Jewish morals and ethics – that’s hardly a breaking newsflash, there. Jesus and his entire family were Jews, and the earliest Christians considered themselves Jews and considered seriously whether (a) Gentiles could ever be accepted as followers of Christ, or if all FOC had to be Jewish and (b) if FOC had to follow Judaic law in matters like circumscision. Christianity is a religion that sprang from Judaism – why would it’s similarities to Jewish morals and ethics be noteworthy, much less surprising. And I like **Dio** do not find Joseph’s forebearance miraculous, even if that _is_ the thrust of the article. He was visited by an angel who explained the situation to him; he knew Mary had not been “unfaithful” and her son was not “illegitimate.” Placing him in the position of “forgiving” those things implies he did not believe the truth imparted to him by the angel. Either the angel is lying, or Joseph disbelieves him, or both. That certainly is not how the story is generally read. In fact, one of the most remarkable things about Joseph is his belief in the news given to him and his obedience to God, even if the face of an unprecedented miracle that surely would not be believed by many, leaving him open to public censure if he stood by his wife – which he did. The best spin probably put on it was that he and Mary had done some premarital canoodling and Jesus really was his son. In any event, nothing if the development of Christianity as it followed indicates that the lessons of Joseph include forebearance of infidelity or illegitimacy. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/6 "2006-12-11T18:01:33Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] I didn’t read the article as saying that Joseph’s forebearance was the true miracle, but maybe I didn’t read it closely enough. My reaction is “eh.” The fact that Christianity is based on Jewish morals and ethics – that’s hardly a breaking newsflash, there. Jesus and his entire family were Jews, and the earliest Christians considered themselves Jews and considered seriously whether (a) Gentiles could ever be accepted as followers of Christ, or if all FOC had to be Jewish and (b) if FOC had to follow Judaic law in matters like circumscision. Christianity is a religion that sprang from Judaism – why would it’s similarities to Jewish morals and ethics be noteworthy, much less surprising. And I like **Dio** do not find Joseph’s forbearance miraculous, even if that _is_ the thrust of the article. He was visited by an angel who explained the situation to him; he knew Mary had not been “unfaithful” and her son was not “illegitimate.” Placing him in the position of “forgiving” those things implies he did not believe the truth imparted to him by the angel. Either the angel is lying, or Joseph disbelieves him, or both. That certainly is not how the story is generally read. In fact, one of the most remarkable things about Joseph is his belief in the news given to him and his obedience to God, even if the face of an unprecedented miracle that surely would not be believed by many, leaving him open to public censure if he stood by his wife – which he did. The best spin probably put on it was that he and Mary had done some premarital canoodling and Jesus really was his son. In any event, nothing if the development of Christianity as it followed indicates that the lessons of Joseph include forebearance of infidelity or illegitimacy. [/QUOTE] I should have been clearer, and I apologize for not having been so. My perspective is that after the article’s framing the initial scenario of Mary’s “I’m pregnant and it’s not yours” , everything after that (IMO) was a non-miraculous, personal moral choice by Joseph. The visitation by angels & such were the CYA spin. The _real_ miracle was that he decided not to be spiteful or vengeful and figured out a moral way to make it all work. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/7 "2006-12-11T18:15:41Z")
I think it was just the ordinary reaction for males of that time and place. “What? She’s she’s not a virgin? I guess I’ll have to just throw her out then.” ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/8 "2006-12-11T18:21:26Z")
[QUOTE=astro] I should have been clearer, and I apologize for not having been so. My perspective is that after the article’s framing the initial scenario of Mary’s “I’m pregnant and it’s not yours” , everything after that (IMO) was a non-miraculous, personal moral choice by Joseph. The visitation by angels & such were the CYA spin. The _real_ miracle was that he decided not to be spiteful or vengeful and figured out a moral way to make it all work. [/QUOTE] That is some pretty imaginative spin, don’t you think? It seems to me he could come up with something a little less fantastic and more believable…hadn’t he ever heard of a premature baby? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/9 "2006-12-11T18:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I think it was just the ordinary reaction for males of that time and place. “What? She’s she’s not a virgin? I guess I’ll have to just throw her out then.” [/QUOTE] No, it’s worse than that, because she became pregnant after they had already married (“bethrothed”, which in this context seems to mean that a ketubah had already been signed), so it’s not just that she’s coming into the marriage not a virgin…she committed adultery against him. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/10 "2006-12-11T18:52:20Z")
[QUOTE=astro] I should have been clearer, and I apologize for not having been so. My perspective is that after the article’s framing the initial scenario of Mary’s “I’m pregnant and it’s not yours” , everything after that (IMO) was a non-miraculous, personal moral choice by Joseph. The visitation by angels & such were the CYA spin. The _real_ miracle was that he decided not to be spiteful or vengeful and figured out a moral way to make it all work. [/QUOTE] Okay, but this assumes that the account given in the Bible isn’t true\*, which is fine with me so far as it goes, but where does that leave us? You reject the authenticity of the visitation and therefore Joseph’s actions become magnanimous, in your mind nigh unto miraculous. It seems to me you could apply the same reasoning to explain how smart Mary was to cover her premarital sex and pregnancy with her own “visitation by angels and such CYA spin.” And Jesus rising from the dead – CYA spin by the apostles to keep alive a religion that otherwise would have died with Him. When you reject the underlying premises of divinity and holy intercession, then you’re left with people inventing stories for reasons of their own, both good or bad. And I don’t have any problem with that, I’m just not sure where such speculation begins, ends, or leads us. And I find the use of the term “miraculous” to be ironic under the circumstances. I mean, you’ve sucked the miraculous right out of it. 🙂 - And I mean “true” in terms of reading the story as just that, a story or myth that contains its own internal “truth,” the veracity of the narrator, regardless of whether you or I personally buy the story as ultimately factual or “true.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/11 "2006-12-11T19:47:11Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] No, it’s worse than that, because she became pregnant after they had already married (“bethrothed”, which in this context seems to mean that a ketubah had already been signed), so it’s not just that she’s coming into the marriage not a virgin…she committed adultery against him. [/QUOTE] Yes, but tossing her out on her ear would still be nothing more than customary and not especially compassionate. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/12 "2006-12-11T19:53:09Z")
I was under the impression that Joseph was “of the line of David” and the prediction from on High was that the Messiah would be “of the line of David”? (And that since it was counted via the father’s line, it wasn’t likely that they meant Mary.) 😕 Couldn’t Joseph and Mary gone at it hot and heavy, not had intercourse, but through a divine fluke she ended up pregnant anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/13 "2006-12-11T20:02:34Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Yes, but tossing her out on her ear would still be nothing more than customary and not especially compassionate. [/QUOTE] Still more compassionate than having her stoned. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/14 "2006-12-11T20:05:32Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] I was under the impression that Joseph was “of the line of David” and the prediction from on High was that the Messiah would be “of the line of David”? [/QUOTE] Not prediction, announcement! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/15 "2006-12-11T20:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] I was under the impression that Joseph was “of the line of David” and the prediction from on High was that the Messiah would be “of the line of David”? (And that since it was counted via the father’s line, it wasn’t likely that they meant Mary.) 😕 Couldn’t Joseph and Mary gone at it hot and heavy, not had intercourse, but through a divine fluke she ended up pregnant anyway? [/QUOTE] Could it be one of those situations, where he prematurely ejaculates on her genitals, and she manages to get pregnant that way? 😛 (My inner Catholic school girl is cringing!) ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/16 "2006-12-11T20:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] I was under the impression that Joseph was “of the line of David” and the prediction from on High was that the Messiah would be “of the line of David”? (And that since it was counted via the father’s line, it wasn’t likely that they meant Mary.) 😕 Couldn’t Joseph and Mary gone at it hot and heavy, not had intercourse, but through a divine fluke she ended up pregnant anyway? [/QUOTE] This is sometimes cited as an objection to Christianity: Either Jesus was the Son of God, in which case He wasn’t of the line of David (through Joseph), and therefore was not the Messiah (who was/is/will be of the line of David); or He was of the line of David (through Joseph) in which case He’s not the Son of God. The response is generally that although He was not Joseph’s biological son, He was his son for paterity/geneology purposes, because He was born of Joseph’s wife during their marriage (and therefore was presumptively Joseph’s son) and Joseph never repudiated Him. Not sure what you mean by your last sentence, though. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/17 "2006-12-11T20:46:06Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Still more compassionate than having her stoned. [/QUOTE] Well, since there weren’t two witnesses, she wouldn’t have been stoned anyway. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/18 "2006-12-11T21:08:09Z")
[QUOTE=zev\_steinhardt] Well, since there weren’t two witnesses, she wouldn’t have been stoned anyway. [/QUOTE] Not legally. Still could have happened. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/19 "2006-12-11T21:10:17Z")
[QUOTE=zev\_steinhardt] Well, since there weren’t two witnesses, she wouldn’t have been stoned anyway. Zev Steinhardt [/QUOTE] Witnesses to… her having committed adultery? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687/20 "2006-12-11T21:20:38Z")
Like others have suggested, I think the article cherry-picks (pun only partially intended) what it wants to believe is true in the nativity story. Did Angels really tell Joseph what they are purported to have told him? If so, why would his reaction be anything other than to stay with Mary. If they didn’t, then why believe anything else in the story, and in fact why “report” on it at all? Or, are they suggesting that Joseph, had he been not a Jew, would have divorced Mary because God got her pregnant? [QUOTE=Jodi] This is sometimes cited as an objection to Christianity: Either Jesus was the Son of God, in which case He wasn’t of the line of David (through Joseph), and therefore was not the Messiah (who was/is/will be of the line of David); or He was of the line of David (through Joseph) in which case He’s not the Son of God. The response is generally that although He was not Joseph’s biological son, He was his son for paterity/geneology purposes, because He was born of Joseph’s wife during their marriage (and therefore was presumptively Joseph’s son) and Joseph never repudiated Him. Not sure what you mean by your last sentence, though. [/QUOTE] I don’t know. I mean, if Jesus is supposed to be both God and man, I don’t see why he can’t be both son of God and son of Joseph. Forget about biological/geneological, if God gets your wife pregnant, and says, “this is your son, and this is also my son,” then that’s just how it is, no? I’m not Christian, but that seems like a ridiculous degree of nit-picking. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josephs-forgiving-his-wifes-unfaithfulness-illegitimate-son-was-the-real-miracle/383687.md?page=2)