# Josh Duggar (Duggar kid 1/19) to be executive director of Family Research Council **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 19, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369 "2013-06-19T16:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/321 "2015-05-25T03:56:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Hoooold your horses, chief. Before we can even get to that perilous stage, we must first clearly define what constitutes an “event”, then carefully examine the nature of time and reality itself to determine whether or not anything can be said to “happen” or “have happened”. _Baaaack it up here a sec…_ It has occurred to me that after inventing time travel, we can’t know for sure we’re not actually entering into an alternate timeline in another universe where Josh had never entered into these acts. This notion you propose, called an “event,” then takes on a meaning of almost absolute uncertainty. First, online litigation & cross-examination has failed us. Alas, now perhaps even science itself! ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/322 "2015-05-25T04:04:09Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > _Baaaack it up here a sec…_ > > It has occurred to me that after inventing time travel, we can’t know for sure we’re not actually entering into an alternate timeline in another universe where Josh had never entered into these acts. > > This notion you propose, called an “event,” then takes on a meaning of almost absolute uncertainty. > > First, online litigation & cross-examination has failed us. Alas, now perhaps even science itself! Curse you _SCIENCE_! Foiled again! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/323 "2015-05-25T09:56:35Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Video? > > Affidavits?! > > No, no, no. The only way to to know with certainty is to invent time travel, go back to those nights, and observe him in the act. Still not sufficient! You could catch (and even make a video of) him in the act, but how does that prove _intent?_ Is it _possible_ he did these things with intent? Of course. Is it _reasonable_ to _assume_ intent? I suppose. Does this mean that intent was _likely?_ Well, let’s not overstate the case. Can we _accuse_ him of _intent_ absent _proof?_ Objection, Your Honor! Assumes facts not in evidence! After all, he _could_ have simply stumbled into the wrong bedroom in the dark and tripped over one of his sisters and, sticking out his arm to break his fall, landed in a _circumstantially incriminating_ position! Who are we to doubt that? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/324 "2015-05-25T12:06:56Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > One wonders then: When, where, and how do they all _bathe?_ I think they’re washed in the blood of the lamb. Eeeeew. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/325 "2015-05-25T13:34:18Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > One wonders then: When, where, and how do they all _bathe?_ According to Michelle, for the little ones they fill the tub and bathe the cleanest first. Must be lovely going last. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/326 "2015-05-25T13:41:35Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > According to Michelle, for the little ones they fill the tub and bathe the cleanest first. Must be lovely going last. Yuck. I want to know how they decide the cleanliness ranking. White glove? Smell? Color swatches? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/327 "2015-05-25T13:55:20Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > According to Michelle, for the little ones they fill the tub and bathe the cleanest first. Must be lovely going last. Yuck. It seems to me such a system would guarantee that the first kid is always the cleanest and the last kid is always the dirtiest. At some point, children being brought up in a home like this are no better off than a kid in a group home. Except I doubt that kids in a group home are forced to marinate in the ass residue left behind by all the other kids. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/328 "2015-05-25T14:02:35Z")
Here’s my latest wild ass theory: This came to light now, despite appearances because a ‘victim’ applied to have the records expunged to protect their identity. I think it will come to light that ‘the’ victim, was a self sacrificing sister protecting the elder brother by getting the record destroyed. Just as they controlled who they approached to ‘report’ this to, ( a family friend and mandatory reporter who chose not to report, now serving big time as a sex offender!) and controlled the consequences (bible camp and a labourius job!) he faced and what would pass for ‘counselling’ for the victim/sisters (bible camp shaming and blaming!). They have very carefully controlled every aspect of this up to and including getting the records destroyed. It seems very much to me that these folks are wielding their power and influence with deft and success. He may have lost his job at Family Research but my money says, in the name of Christian forgiveness he’ll be back there before long. His Dad put him in that job once and he’ll do it again, I predict. And as the left loses its shit over the hateful bigotry and hypocrisy I believe the right is going to just get all pious with Christian forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/329 "2015-05-25T14:23:01Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > And as the left loses its shit over the hateful bigotry and hypocrisy I believe the right is going to just get all pious with Christian forgiveness. Maybe. Huckabee is being [disemboweled](http://www.alternet.org/culture/mike-huckabees-facebook-fans-tear-him-shreds-defending-josh-duggar) on Facebook. ETA:[direct link.](https://www.facebook.com/mikehuckabee/posts/10152994543137869) ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/330 "2015-05-25T14:27:31Z")
Woo, late to this party. Stupid work. The whole thing is sad all around. First and for most because those poor, poor girls. Everything about their faith and families teachings have taught them that they have no agency of choice over their own bodies, and here’s yet another example, and learned so young. My heart aches for them. ☹ And, yes, even if it isn’t explicitly said to them, when a girl is told that she must watch how she dresses and acts, lest she excite the boys, it’s harmful to her. If she is abused, of _course_ she will come to the logical conclusion that it was her fault. Of _course_ she will. As for Josh - there’s a lot of discussion about how this can’t be chocked up to “boys will be boys” and I wholeheartedly agree. But Josh wasn’t raised like a normal boy. He was raised in an extremely sexually repressive environment. It’s a little like if your young teen is getting beat up day after day, by a parent or a fellow student, whoever. One day, you come home and they’ve killed the neighbor’s cat. That’s not normal, and if you’re smart, you get them professional help post haste. But I don’t think it makes them a destined abuser, nor a future serial killer. And I don’t think Josh is probably still molesting children, and probably has no real desire to do so. I still think both he and his family are disgusting human beings, though. They advocate for hate and oppression, and I’d like to think that some of those children will break free of this abusive cult. My sister tells me that one of the daughters isn’t really spoken of on the show, so perhaps they’ve started to do so. The real question is why we’re following around these disgusting fringe members of our society with a camera and treating them like they’re yet another quirky aspect of American life. This isn’t what America is, and we shouldn’t treat it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/331 "2015-05-25T14:39:11Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Still not sufficient! You could catch (and even make a video of) him in the act, but how does that prove _intent?_ > > Is it _possible_ he did these things with intent? Of course. Is it _reasonable_ to _assume_ intent? I suppose. Does this mean that intent was _likely?_ Well, let’s not overstate the case. Can we _accuse_ him of _intent_ absent _proof?_ Objection, Your Honor! Assumes facts not in evidence! > > After all, he _could_ have simply stumbled into the wrong bedroom in the dark and tripped over one of his sisters and, sticking out his arm to break his fall, landed in a _circumstantially incriminating_ position! Who are we to doubt that? Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you’re in that jury room deliberatin’ and conjugatin’ the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/332 "2015-05-25T14:42:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > At some point, children being brought up in a home like this are no better off than a kid in a group home. Except I doubt that kids in a group home are forced to marinate in the ass residue left behind by all the other kids. It’s worse than a group home. In a group home, the kids would be attending public school. In Duggar land, the kids would be allowed to attend public school, not given bits of education at the dining room table when mommy finds it convenient. In a group home, the kids would be responsible for themselves and no one else. In Duggar land, Michelle assigns each older child responsibility for a younger child, turning them into a co-parent because she can’t parent all of her kids. In a group home, the kids would be allowed to choose their own religious beliefs and protected against state intrusion into their spiritual lives. In Duggar land, the kids are given no choice about what to think religiously. Should they choose anything other than fundamentalist Christianity, they will be cast away from the family. In a group home, the girls would be allowed to wear pants, short sleeved tops and even shorts in the summer. In Duggar land, the girls are only allowed to wear long dresses. Most importantly of all, in a group home Josh would have been removed by the authorities and his sisters given counseling. In Duggar land, Josh was given no counseling and then allowed to return. His sisters would not have been told to forgive him or pretend his molestation did not happen. So they’re not only running a group home, they’re running a really crappy group home. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/333 "2015-05-25T14:47:55Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Video? > > Affidavits?! > > No, no, no. The only way to to know with certainty is to invent time travel, go back to those nights, and observe him in the act. > [@raventhief](#): > > Well, then we could certainly _speculate_ on the likelihood of the event having happened. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Hoooold your horses, chief. Before we can even get to that perilous stage, we must first clearly define what constitutes an “event”, then carefully examine the nature of time and reality itself to determine whether or not anything can be said to “happen” or “have happened”. > [@cmyk](#): > > _Baaaack it up here a sec…_ > > It has occurred to me that after inventing time travel, we can’t know for sure we’re not actually entering into an alternate timeline in another universe where Josh had never entered into these acts. > > This notion you propose, called an “event,” then takes on a meaning of almost absolute uncertainty. > > First, online litigation & cross-examination has failed us. Alas, now perhaps even science itself! > [@Senegoid](#): > > Still not sufficient! You could catch (and even make a video of) him in the act, but how does that prove _intent?_ > > Is it _possible_ he did these things with intent? Of course. Is it _reasonable_ to _assume_ intent? I suppose. Does this mean that intent was _likely?_ Well, let’s not overstate the case. Can we _accuse_ him of _intent_ absent _proof?_ Objection, Your Honor! Assumes facts not in evidence! > > After all, he _could_ have simply stumbled into the wrong bedroom in the dark and tripped over one of his sisters and, sticking out his arm to break his fall, landed in a _circumstantially incriminating_ position! Who are we to doubt that? WRT **Bricker** and the oh-so-clever opprobrium being lavished upon his vaunted (if self-serving) skepticism, the conversation appears to have wandered out into the tall weeds. Just as a reminder, nothing that has been alleged about Josh Duggar’s behavior toward his sisters and the Mystery Girl has been challenged by **Bricker**. He is _only_ challenging the assertions that Josh’s parents followed standard Gothardite teachings about how to minister to Josh’s victims and that their default attitude toward the girls is to assume that they somehow were responsible for inspiring Josh’s behavior. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/334 "2015-05-25T14:57:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Just as a reminder, nothing that has been alleged about Josh Duggar’s behavior toward his sisters and the Mystery Girl has been challenged by **Bricker**. He is _only_ challenging the assertions that Josh’s parents followed standard Gothardite teachings about how to minister to Josh’s victims and that their default attitude toward the girls is to assume that they somehow were responsible for inspiring Josh’s behavior. The presumption of Gothardite teachings for the girls in the aftermath of the assault is a perfectly reasonable assumption. We know the abuse went on for awhile. We know they didn’t get him ANY kind of counseling. We apparently don’t know exactly how they told the girls to respond to the abuse. We don’t know that because even though they’ve told us just about everything else (including extremely precise details about Michelle Duggar’s menstrual cycles and birthing details – hell I knew the day she gave birth prematurely to Josie because it was all over the news) we don’t know exactly what they did. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/335 "2015-05-25T15:24:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > He is _only_ challenging the assertions that Josh’s parents followed standard Gothardite teachings about how to minister to Josh’s victims and that their default attitude toward the girls is to assume that they somehow were responsible for inspiring Josh’s behavior. Make that “inspiring and allowing” and I’ll still say that it has been established _beyond reasonable doubt_ that they were. The Law may make allowances for Josh’s behavior because of his age at the time, but Mom and Dad cannot claim they were following the tenets of their religion and outside the strictures of the law and expect to get off in this country. Well, maybe in Arkansas. As for Josh’s age, **Bricker** should recall that he was TWICE the Catholic Church’s “age of reason,” the point where a child begins to be morally responsible, and well into puberty, when he became fully responsible. No more youthful indiscretions for him by the religious law **Bricker** follows. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/336 "2015-05-25T15:34:51Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The presumption of Gothardite teachings for the girls in the aftermath of the assault is a perfectly reasonable assumption. We know the abuse went on for awhile. We know they didn’t get him ANY kind of counseling. We apparently don’t know exactly how they told the girls to respond to the abuse. We don’t know that because even though they’ve told us just about everything else (including extremely precise details about Michelle Duggar’s menstrual cycles and birthing details – hell I knew the day she gave birth prematurely to Josie because it was all over the news) we don’t know exactly what they did. I know. I agree that **Bricker** ’s defense of the parents is misguided. I’m just pointing out that the criticism of him in the posts I quoted seems to suggest that he’s also misguidedly defending Josh. I’m all for castigating **Bricker** ’s wrongness. But it seems that we should stick to castigating him for the things he’s actually wrong _about_. It looks like he may have withdrawn from the discussion\*, but if he reads this I hope he recognizes the irony of what I’m doing here. 😃 \*or he may be spending the holiday with his real family, instead of his SDMB family. If so, I hope he’s getting maximum joy out of it. And I hope the same for you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/337 "2015-05-25T16:48:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I know. I agree that **Bricker** ’s defense of the parents is misguided. I’m just pointing out that the criticism of him in the posts I quoted seems to suggest that he’s also misguidedly defending Josh. I’m all for castigating **Bricker** ’s wrongness. But it seems that we should stick to castigating him for the things he’s actually wrong _about_. > > It looks like he may have withdrawn from the discussion\*, but if he reads this I hope he recognizes the irony of what I’m doing here. 😃 > > \*or he may be spending the holiday with his real family, instead of his SDMB family. If so, I hope he’s getting maximum joy out of it. And I hope the same for you. 🙂 That is a valid point. It’s easy for the mocking to cover the whole situation, but he really was challenging the assumptions about counseling, not the abuse itself. Not even Josh is denying that abuse occurred. So I do apologize for the contributions I made that helped a pile-on. ---
**Author:** ![AustinJane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df788c/32.png) [@AustinJane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AustinJane)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/338 "2015-05-25T16:59:26Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > That is a valid point. It’s easy for the mocking to cover the whole situation, but he really was challenging the assumptions about counseling, not the abuse itself. Not even Josh is denying that abuse occurred. So I do apologize for the contributions I made that helped a pile-on. Sorry but I would disagree. That may have been his concern, but his compulsion was on overdrive and he shit on that thread. He could not let it go. And his real obsession was that Honey used the word “likely”. This is not his first rodeo. He is an intelligent grown man, and should know how to communicate without that much drama. He made the discussion about semantics and once again derailed the topic. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/339 "2015-05-25T17:23:33Z")
> [@AustinJane](#): > > Sorry but I would disagree. That may have been his concern, but his compulsion was on overdrive and he shit on that thread. He could not let it go. And his real obsession was that Honey used the word “likely”. This is not his first rodeo. He is an intelligent grown man, and should know how to communicate without that much drama. He made the discussion about semantics and once again derailed the topic. Granted, but the mocking _did_ grow to encompass an area that he did not in fact try to defend. _shrug_ Ultimately, I don’t want to contribute to his whole “No liberal ever tries to correct another liberal on this board!” shtick. ---
**Author:** ![AustinJane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df788c/32.png) [@AustinJane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AustinJane)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369/340 "2015-05-25T17:29:26Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Granted, but the mocking _did_ grow to encompass an area that he did not in fact try to defend. _shrug_ Ultimately, I don’t want to contribute to his whole “No liberal ever tries to correct another liberal on this board!” shtick. Actually I was quite impressed with your contributions. And I feel comfortable Bricker earns his mocking through his own efforts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-duggar-duggar-kid-1-19-to-be-executive-director-of-family-research-council/661369.md?page=18)