# Josh Marshall: "the president now has very different interests than the \[U.S.\]" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747 "2007-08-24T11:14:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/1 "2007-08-24T11:14:15Z")
[Joshua Micah Marshall](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/040894.php): > [@](#): > > And here I think we get back to the root of the matter: We are bigger than Iraq. > > By that I do not mean we, as America, are bigger or better than Iraq as a country. I mean that that sum of our national existence is not bound up in what happens there. The country will go on. Whatever happens, we’ll recover from it. And whatever might happen, there are things that matter much more to this country’s future – like whether we have a functioning military any more, whether our economy is wrecked, whether this country tears itself apart over this catastrophe. But we’ll go on and look back at this and judge what happened. > > Not so for the president. For him, this is it. He’s not bigger than this. His entire legacy as president is bound up in Iraq. Which is another way of saying that his legacy is pretty clearly an irrecoverable shambles. That is why, as the folly of the enterprise becomes more clear, he must continually puff it up into more and more melodramatic and world-historical dimensions. A century long ideological struggle and the like. For the president a one in a thousand shot at some better outcome is well worth it, no matter what the cost. Because at least that’s a one in a thousand shot at not ending his presidency with the crushing verdict history now has in store. It’s also worth just letting things keep on going as they are forever because, like Micawber, something better might turn up. Going double or nothing by expanding the war into Iran might be worth it too for the same reason. For him, how can it get worse? > > And when you boil all this down what it comes down to is that the president now has very different interests than the country he purports to lead. Is this an accurate assessment? And if so, how dangerous is this divergence of interests? And what, if anything, should we do about it? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/2 "2007-08-24T11:17:05Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [Joshua Micah Marshall](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/040894.php): Is this an accurate assessment? And if so, how dangerous is this divergence of interests? And what, if anything, should we do about it? [/QUOTE] Completely accurate. Very dangerous as the next gamble will be military action against Iran on some trumped up, pot/kettle pretext. Multiple impeachments. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/3 "2007-08-24T14:57:58Z")
It’s called being a lame duck, and it happens every 4 to 8 years. What do we do? We elect a new president next year. You can choose to twist and squirm and agonize over the fact that Bush is going to finish his presidency, but that won’t change things. We elected a new Congress last year, and it hasn’t done squat. Maybe “we” should kick them out again next year and get new blood in there. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/4 "2007-08-24T15:14:05Z")
Bush has always had very different interests than the country he purports to lead. This is news? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/5 "2007-08-24T15:26:46Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s called being a lame duck, and it happens every 4 to 8 years. What do we do? We elect a new president next year. [/quote] Yeah, it happens every 4-8 years that we have a President in whose case it’s anybody’s guess whether he’ll start a third major war on account of the first two wars he’s started not going so well. Happens all the fucking time, right? > [@](#): > > You can choose to twist and squirm and agonize over the fact that Bush is going to finish his presidency, but that won’t change things. And maybe at 12:01pm on January 20, 2009, we’ll all heave a sigh of relief, knowing we dodged the bullet of Bush bombing Iran. Or maybe we’ll all heave a sigh of relief, knowing that the cleanup after Bush’s three wars can finally start. I’ve got this wacky idea that perhaps letting it be a riverboat gamble as to which way it goes is a very bad idea for the World’s Sole Superpower. And leaving Bush and Cheney with the power to attack Iran is, for all practical purposes, a riverboat gamble: they don’t care what anyone else thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/6 "2007-08-24T16:26:35Z")
You know the actual benefit to the citizenry of the United States of the Iraq war, as opposed to the Vietnam war is that in the latter case, the general populace has no clue how we ended up in Vietnam, with an army and no military objective for that army to accomplish. The Iraq war is Bush, and the Congress in office at that time. No quibbles, it was their idea, they all decided together that what we need is to get involved in a land war in Asia. “Hey, Ernie! Let’s play two!” ## Tris “There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.” ~ Sun-Tzu ~ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/7 "2007-08-24T16:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Yeah, it happens every 4-8 years that we have a President in whose case it’s anybody’s guess whether he’ll start a third major war on account of the first two wars he’s started not going so well. Happens all the fucking time, right? [/quote] If that was supposed to some brilliant, insightful political analysis, it went over my head. > [@](#): > > And maybe at 12:01pm on January 20, 2009, we’ll all heave a sigh of relief, knowing we dodged the bullet of Bush bombing Iran. Or maybe we’ll all heave a sigh of relief, knowing that the cleanup after Bush’s three wars can finally start. > > I’ve got this wacky idea that perhaps letting it be a riverboat gamble as to which way it goes is a very bad idea for the World’s Sole Superpower. And leaving Bush and Cheney with the power to attack Iran is, for all practical purposes, a riverboat gamble: they don’t care what anyone else thinks. Well, why don’t you tell us what you think we should do? You seem to want some magical solution, when the only tools we have of getting Bush out of power are revolution or impeachment (and subsequent removal from office). Take your pick, but I don’t see either of them happening. I guess the third thing we can do is bitch and moan about how much Bush sucks… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/8 "2007-08-24T16:33:49Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If that was supposed to some brilliant, insightful political analysis, it went over my head. [/quote] If so, that reflects poorly on you, not on **RT.** [QUOTE=John Mace] Well, why don’t you tell us what you think we should do? [/QUOTE] For one thing, we can whip up public opposition to the point where action against Iran becomes politically impossible even for the CinC. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/9 "2007-08-24T16:39:57Z")
Wait, doesn’t such public opposition to make action against Iran impossible already exist? Although if you think we should have more discussion about why invading Iran would be a bad idea, knock yourself out. I’m not going to disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/10 "2007-08-24T16:44:00Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Wait, doesn’t such public opposition to make action against Iran impossible already exist? [/QUOTE] Yes, but the Admin is relentless trying to chip away at it in various ways. (See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=432949) thread.) We can’t relax. We mustn’t even be satisfied to run faster and faster to stay where we are, like the Red Queen. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/11 "2007-08-24T16:46:32Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Wait, doesn’t such public opposition to make action against Iran impossible already exist? Although if you think we should have more discussion about why invading Iran would be a bad idea, knock yourself out. I’m not going to disagree with you. [/QUOTE] Except the question is not just whether we should _invade_ Iran. The question is also whether we should _bomb_ Iran. And I think we need to make as much noise as possible to let our government know we don’t like _that_ idea either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/12 "2007-08-24T17:14:58Z")
Of course, there’s always [direct action.](http://www.theonion.com/content/news/democratic_mob_censures_bush_in) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/13 "2007-08-24T17:36:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If that was supposed to some brilliant, insightful political analysis, it went over my head. [/quote] You were equating the present situation, and the risks associated with the divergent interests of Bush and the country, with the lame-duck period of every other President. I was pointing out the complete and total dissimilarity. > [@](#): > > Well, why don’t you tell us what you think we should do? You seem to want some magical solution, when the only tools we have of getting Bush out of power are revolution or impeachment (and subsequent removal from office). Take your pick, but I don’t see either of them happening. I don’t either. I’ve argued before - and I think Marshall’s analysis makes the need clearer - that the present situation calls for impeachment. The votes are almost certainly not there to remove Bush and Cheney from office. But that’s no reason for the Democrats not to _try_. > [@](#): > > I guess the third thing we can do is bitch and moan about how much Bush sucks… Lacking the super-powers to personally jerk Bush and Cheney out of their lair and deliver them, gift-wrapped, to The Hague, I’m afraid my powers are limited to advocating a course of action. I guess I can do that, or I can shut up. If it bothers you that people are advocating Bush’s impeachment in a forum such as this, even though they have no power to actually make it happen, then I heartily recommend you stick with MPSIMS, GQ, and the other nonpolitical fora. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/14 "2007-08-24T17:38:48Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Except the question is not just whether we should _invade_ Iran. The question is also whether we should _bomb_ Iran. And I think we need to make as much noise as possible to let our government know we don’t like _that_ idea either. [/QUOTE] Indeed. Not that Bush and Cheney are required to take such noise into consideration - AFAICT, the War Powers Act gives them free rein to bomb Iran for up to 90 days without Congressional approval - but maybe it’ll get enough Pubbie Senators to lean on them that they might think twice. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/15 "2007-08-24T17:48:14Z")
Hasn’t worked yet. They’ve gone from quiet expressions of concern to daubing themselves with shit and setting their hair on fire. Response: nada damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/16 "2007-08-24T17:58:58Z")
With Warner’s call for some withdrawal more moderate Republicans will make their break with Bush. You have to think many would like to do so. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/17 "2007-08-24T18:17:37Z")
If Iran is bombed we’re in the shit. It doesn’t matter what the political fallout is, we’ll have a gaping hole in the Middle-East that stretches from Saudi Arabia to China and threatens the stability of Pakistan and the KSA. It’ll be the Non-State actors failed state wet dream. It’ll be a black market bazaar with weapons going back and forth and well trained militaries training terrorists all over the place. The loss of Iran will hurt China’s access to oil and natural gas significantly and will probably sour our relations with China in a big way. Bush is the psychotic with his finger on the trigger and holds the entire world hostage. The power vacuum that it will create in the middle-east will suck every major power in, in the long term causing a massive militarization and land grabs for oil. We’ll just see how dedicated to forcing the Christian Eschaton Bush really is, because bombing Iran is how he can get his wish. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/18 "2007-08-24T20:07:14Z")
Lame duck, ruptured duck, Raptured duck. Duck! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/19 "2007-08-24T21:07:35Z")
[QUOTE=Burton] With Warner’s call for some withdrawal more moderate Republicans will make their break with Bush. You have to think many would like to do so. [/QUOTE] Warner sure talks a good game. But when it’s time to vote to limit Bush in any way, he’s never there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747/20 "2007-08-24T21:48:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I don’t either. I’ve argued before - and I think Marshall’s analysis makes the need clearer - that the present situation calls for impeachment So what you’re saying is you want us to re-evaluate your idea of a [preemptive impeachment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=406837)? Why didn’t you just tell us that in the first place… It was a bad idea then and it’s a bad idea now. Nothing has changed. Or maybe we start the impeachment process for Obama right now, just in case he wins, since he says he might bomb Pakistan. That’s scares me more than bombing Iran, btw. [QUOTE=RTFirefly] If it bothers you that people are advocating Bush’s impeachment in a forum such as this, even though they have no power to actually make it happen, then I heartily recommend you stick with MPSIMS, GQ, and the other nonpolitical fora. [/QUOTE] Well, gee **RTF** , given that all you did for your OP was copy something out of [TalkingPointsMemo.com](http://TalkingPointsMemo.com), I thought we were in MPSIMS. 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/josh-marshall-the-president-now-has-very-different-interests-than-the-u-s/416747.md?page=2)