# Joshua Boyle and Caitlin Coleman are not heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053 "2017-10-16T14:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/21 "2017-10-17T13:08:33Z")
Who characterized them as heroes? The CBC? ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/22 "2017-10-17T13:34:58Z")
[Boyle’s explanation as to why they decided to have children while in captivity.](https://www.today.com/news/taliban-hostage-why-couple-decided-have-children-captivity-t117596) > [@](#): > > The father of a family held hostage by the Taliban said he and his wife decided to have children in captivity because they always wanted a large family and “didn’t want to waste time.” > [@](#): > > The couple had “a lot of time on their hands," Boyle explained to The AP. > > "We always wanted as many as possible, and we didn’t want to waste time,” he said in a written exchange, adding that his wife was “in her 30s, the clock is ticking.” Well, you know. Time was a wastin’. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/23 "2017-10-17T13:40:45Z")
Is it just me, or does it seem like they weren’t exactly suffering while held captive? Did the Tals decide that the Boyles were mooching off them too much and kick them out? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/24 "2017-10-17T13:47:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :dubious: Besides your atrocious knowledge of geography, what the hell do you think a “half Arab” looks like? You know, half Arab! Like Jake Gyllenhaal in _Prince of Persia_. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/25 "2017-10-17T15:01:23Z")
Having children while in captivity doesnt strike me as all that weird. The descendents of slaves would not be here if being held captive was enough to dry up eggs, sperm, and libido. Plus, being pregnant provides relief from menustration. They seem like dumb people and they certaintly are selfish for intentionally having kids under those circumstances. But people fuck in the worst of times.Big whoop. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/26 "2017-10-17T15:02:46Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Is it just me, or does it seem like they weren’t exactly suffering while held captive? Did the Tals decide that the Boyles were mooching off them too much and kick them out? I know. They only had one of their kids, after all. It’s not like they were all killed or anything! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/27 "2017-10-17T15:21:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Having children while in captivity doesnt strike me as all that weird. The descendents of slaves would not be here if being held captive was enough to dry up eggs, sperm, and libido. Plus, being pregnant provides relief from menustration. They weren’t just “in captivity,” they were hostages, and under threat of death if their captors’ demands weren’t met. Boyle has revealed that his wife had not three, but four, children while they were in captivity, and said the [Haqqanis murdered his infant daughter.](http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/joshua-boyle-says-haqqani-network-killed-his-baby-daughter-raped-his-wife/article19862616.ece) It’s not clear when that happened but certainly the youngest child, who is two months old, was conceived after the murder. To deliberately bring children into such circumstances (and Boyle says they did so because they wanted a large family) when they are under clear threat of death is beyond appalling. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/28 "2017-10-17T15:39:52Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > This just sickens me. Btw I wonder if the kids are bilingual Sure – they speak both Canadian _and_ American. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/29 "2017-10-17T15:56:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > They seem like dumb people \ I think that’s a most apt characterization. The rest is commentary. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/30 "2017-10-17T16:08:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They weren’t just “in captivity,” they were hostages, and under threat of death if their captors’ demands weren’t met. > > Boyle has revealed that his wife had not three, but four, children while they were in captivity, and said the [Haqqanis murdered his infant daughter.](http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/joshua-boyle-says-haqqani-network-killed-his-baby-daughter-raped-his-wife/article19862616.ece) It’s not clear when that happened but certainly the youngest child, who is two months old, was conceived after the murder. **To deliberately bring children into such circumstances (and Boyle says they did so because they wanted a large family) when they are under clear threat of death is beyond appalling**. (Emphasis added) You have got to be fucking joking. Please tell me what exactly is the “approved” way of acting during a multi-year captivity in a foreign land which is at war with you, with minimal facilities, loads of free time and little access to contraception. And after a while no hope and expectation of escape or release? ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/31 "2017-10-17T16:14:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Not only that, they were dressed provocatively, too. A woman getting raped in her own free country based on what she is wearing is nothing like westerners getting taken hostage in a hostile country that they were "pilgraming "through in an attempt to cozy up to terrorists. If you don’t think they bear any culpibility for their ordeal you are an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/32 "2017-10-17T16:19:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > A woman getting raped in her own free country based on what she is wearing is nothing like westerners getting taken hostage in a hostile country that they were "pilgraming "through in an attempt to cozy up to terrorists. > > If you don’t think they bear any culpibility for their ordeal you are an idiot. I’m fairly certain Alessan was being sarcastic. The couple strikes me as incredibly stupid, but being stupid isn’t an excuse to hold people hostage. I also think Joshua Boyle may be have very tragically believed his connections to his former wife’s family were stronger and more powerful than they actually were. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/33 "2017-10-17T16:24:03Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m fairly certain Alessan was being sarcastic. Yeah, I heard the rushing air all the way over in Elections. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/34 "2017-10-17T16:25:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > (Emphasis added) > You have got to be fucking joking. > Please tell me what exactly is the “approved” way of acting during a multi-year captivity in a foreign land which is at war with you, with minimal facilities, loads of free time and little access to contraception. And after a while no hope and expectation of escape or release? You’ve never heard of anal or oral sex or mutual masturbation? The average teenager knows more about having sex without pregnancy. It would be one thing if they were having sex and but trying to prevent pregnancy (even by the rhythm method or coitus interruptus) and had an accident, but Boyle says they were deliberately trying to bring children into a situation where their lives were at risk. You’re a fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/35 "2017-10-17T23:25:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m fairly certain Alessan was being sarcastic. The couple strikes me as incredibly stupid, but being stupid isn’t an excuse to hold people hostage. I also think Joshua Boyle may be have very tragically believed his connections to his former wife’s family were stronger and more powerful than they actually were. Well, ok I’ll admit to being whooshed if that’s the case. And no, no matter how stupid they were they didn’t deserve what happened to them. But their stupidity sure racheted up the tragedies. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/36 "2017-10-18T03:38:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > They weren’t just “in captivity,” they were hostages, and under threat of death if their captors’ demands weren’t met. > > Boyle has revealed that his wife had not three, but four, children while they were in captivity, and said the [Haqqanis murdered his infant daughter.](http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/joshua-boyle-says-haqqani-network-killed-his-baby-daughter-raped-his-wife/article19862616.ece) It’s not clear when that happened but certainly the youngest child, who is two months old, was conceived after the murder. To deliberately bring children into such circumstances (and Boyle says they did so because they wanted a large family) when they are under clear threat of death is beyond appalling. Agreed, especially how flippant he was about it: > [@](#): > > The family’s three children, who are 4, 2 and an infant “somewhere around 6 months,” were all born in captivity. > > The couple had “a lot of time on their hands," Boyle explained to The AP. > > "We always wanted as many as possible, and we didn’t want to waste time,” he said in a written exchange, adding that his wife was “in her 30s, the clock is ticking.” > > Two of Joshua Boyle’s children who were born while their parents were held hostage in Afghanistan. > A big family was always the plan, Boyle said. > > "Honestly we’ve always planned to have a family of 5, 10, 12 children … We’re Irish, haha,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/37 "2017-10-18T04:02:34Z")
Yeah. They don’t even seem to think of the children as people. They’re just an object they wanted to have. The idea that maybe they’d be raising their children in a horrible environment and the harm they’d be doing to them didn’t enter their mind. Having kids is not something you do just to make yourself feel good. You are bringing a new life into the world, and you have a responsibility to that life. I could have a kid right now, but I know I’m in no place (mentally in my case) to raise one. So I don’t. My sister is not in a financial place to have kids, so she doesn’t. Granted, she has access to drugs that those guys didn’t. So if it was accidental, I’d be okay with it. But it wasn’t. They chose to have kids. They chose to bring lives into the world because of their selfish desire to have kids, not because they thought they’d be making a good life for their kids. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/38 "2017-10-18T04:03:37Z")
All that said, their incredulity about Trump being president was nice. It’s nice to remember what it was like when that seemed impossible. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/39 "2017-10-18T08:38:48Z")
Agree about the Trump thing. That was pretty funny. > [@BigT](#): > > The idea that maybe they’d be raising their children in a horrible environment and the harm they’d be doing to them didn’t enter their mind. > > Having kids is not something you do just to make yourself feel good. You are bringing a new life into the world, and you have a responsibility to that life. > > I could have a kid right now, but I know I’m in no place (mentally in my case) to raise one. So I don’t. My sister is not in a financial place to have kids, so she doesn’t. Granted, she has access to drugs that those guys didn’t. So if it was accidental, I’d be okay with it. But it wasn’t. > > They chose to have kids. They chose to bring lives into the world because of their selfish desire to have kids, not because they thought they’d be making a good life for their kids. While I obviously agree in this specific case, the way you kind of broadened the argument makes me realize it’s perhaps a slippery slope. Personally, I have four kids from two marriages, and all four pregnancies were fully paid for by Medicaid, and all four kids (ranging from five to 17 years old) were on Medicaid their whole lives until just a couple months ago. To some people, maybe a lot of people, that would also make me someone who shouldn’t have had kids. Then there are people on the opposite side who might say if I feel that it was irresponsible for this couple to have kids, what about the hundreds of millions of parents in the developing world who have kids despite living on less than two dollars a day, with little to no access to medical care, schooling, or electricity and indoor plumbing? Should the global poor just voluntarily eugenicize themselves, or be judged harshly for not doing so? But I just think this is a special case. They did not have any kind of freedom of movement, they did not have an extended family or kinship group of other people in the same predicament. Their future was uncertain: they might be released or just killed. They had no real way to even attempt to improve their circumstances. That’s an unusual enough, and dire enough, situation that I hold to my view that it was irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/40 "2017-10-18T08:52:32Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > A woman getting raped in her own free country based on what she is wearing is nothing like westerners getting taken hostage in a hostile country that they were "pilgraming "through in an attempt to cozy up to terrorists. > > If you don’t think they bear any culpibility for their ordeal you are an idiot. Culpability is not zero-sum. The fact that they were idiots doen’t excuse their captors one whit - all it does is make it easier for us to tell ourselves it can’t happen to us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053.md?page=3)