# Joshua Boyle and Caitlin Coleman are not heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053 "2017-10-16T14:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/41 "2017-10-18T09:02:58Z")
It’s sort of like leaving your wallet in your convertible with the top down. It’s still wrong for someone to take it, it’s still theft, but you’re a complete idiot to be that careless and expect to get away with it. This distinction is one that often comes up when someone writes advice for young women going off to college on how to be careful at parties to avoid becoming a victim of sexual assault. Inevitably, from certain corners will come the complaint that this is “blaming the victim”. Advising people to be careful, and specifically describing ways to effect caution, is not “blame”. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/42 "2017-10-18T10:38:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Culpability is not zero-sum. The fact that they were idiots doen’t excuse their captors one whit - all it does is make it easier for us to tell ourselves it can’t happen to us. nobody’s “excusing” their captors. at most, we’re saying this isn’t so much “you shouldn’t have been dressed like that,” it’s more like “you shouldn’t have gone up to that crocodile and jammed your thumb up its butthole.” ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/43 "2017-10-18T13:08:45Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > nobody’s “excusing” their captors. at most, we’re saying this isn’t so much “you shouldn’t have been dressed like that,” it’s more like “you shouldn’t have gone up to that crocodile and jammed your thumb up its butthole.” It’s things like these that remind me why I love the Dope. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/44 "2017-10-18T13:09:37Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > nobody’s “excusing” their captors. at most, we’re saying this isn’t so much “you shouldn’t have been dressed like that,” it’s more like “you shouldn’t have gone up to that crocodile and jammed your thumb up its butthole.” Or maybe, “You shouldn’t have gone up to Harvey Weinstein’s hotel room?” I just don’t think that this is the week for us to be blaming victims, no matter the circumstances. Not when rape is involved. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/45 "2017-10-18T13:16:36Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > It’s things like these that remind me why I love the Dope. 😃 Borrowed from South Park and spoken by obvious Steve Urwin parody: > [@](#): > > As we steer our boat down, looking for these dangerous predators… Boy, there’s a king croc right here. He must be four meters; 12, 13 feet long at least. This croc has enough power in its jaws to rip my head right off. I’ve got to be careful. So, what I’m gonna do is sneak up on it and jam my thumb in its butthole. Still funny though. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/46 "2017-10-18T13:23:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Culpability is not zero-sum. The fact that they were idiots doen’t excuse their captors one whit - all it does is make it easier for us to tell ourselves it can’t happen to us. Then you picked a shitty way to express it with your “shouldn’t have dressed like that” comment. No one is excusing the captors behavior and you have conflated two differing situations in an attempt to white-knight these idiots. Just so I’m understanding you correctly, you do think these people are heroes, right? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/47 "2017-10-18T13:36:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Or maybe, “You shouldn’t have gone up to Harvey Weinstein’s hotel room?” > > I just don’t think that this is the week for us to be blaming victims, no matter the circumstances. Not when rape is involved. I’m talking about _him._ I’m not “blaming” _her_ for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/48 "2017-10-18T13:41:15Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Just so I’m understanding you correctly, you do think these people are heroes, right? Of course not, they’re fucking idiots. Who the hell goes backpacking in Afghanistan? But they’re also victims, and I don’t feel comfortable attacking victims right now. In retrospect, I think I might be threadshitting. Ignore me. Threadshitter out. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/49 "2017-10-18T14:33:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yeah. They don’t even seem to think of the children as people. They’re just an object they wanted to have. The idea that maybe they’d be raising their children in a horrible environment and the harm they’d be doing to them didn’t enter their mind. Exactly. My husband and I could not afford children until I was in my late 30s. This is why we have only one child. We also did every test possible to make sure he was healthy, because we knew the risks of an older mother. After we had him, we knew the risks went up even further if we had a baby when I was 40, plus, we had enough trouble casing a toddler then, we didn’t want to be chasing one when we were middle-aged. So we have one child. We always knew that if we really desperately wanted a bigger family, we could adopt older children, but so far, one has been enough. We were extremely careful with birth control, and that turned out to be a very good call. We got pregnant practically on the first try. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/50 "2017-10-18T16:42:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > (Emphasis added) > You have got to be fucking joking. > Please tell me what exactly is the “approved” way of acting during a multi-year captivity in a foreign land which is at war with you, with minimal facilities, loads of free time and little access to contraception. And after a while no hope and expectation of escape or release? There is no approved list I’m aware of but if there was I would put “don’t have any children while being held hostage by murderous terrorists.” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/51 "2017-10-18T19:30:49Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I’m talking about _him._ I’m not “blaming” _her_ for anything. I’ve seen this sentiment a lot, but isn’t it sexist? Doesn’t she have agency? She’s a modern Western woman married to a Western man, and was not raised in a conservative religious sect. I can’t see any reason why she would not be able to equally make decisions within the marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/52 "2017-10-18T19:56:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Of course not, they’re fucking idiots. Who the hell goes backpacking in Afghanistan? > > But they’re also victims, and I don’t feel comfortable attacking victims right now. They’re victims of their captors, and the infant that was killed was also a victim of their captors. But the infant (and the other children) were also victims of their parents’ choice to conceive them in a very dangerous environment. (Regarding the rape, that apparently took place early in their captivity and so wasn’t the cause of the younger children’s conception.) So whatever you think of their captors, the parents bear some blame for the situation of their children. > [@Alessan](#): > > Culpability is not zero-sum. The fact that they were idiots doen’t excuse their captors one whit - all it does is make it easier for us to tell ourselves it can’t happen to us. I’ve gone into some dicey parts of the world where I could potentially have been taken hostage. (Nothing as bad as Afghanistan, though.) If I had, I would accept the fact that my decisions played a part of that. One thing I can reliably say could not possibly happen to me is to decide to have children in the circumstances these people were in. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/53 "2017-10-18T23:25:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’ve seen this sentiment a lot, but isn’t it sexist? Doesn’t she have agency? She’s a modern Western woman married to a Western man, and was not raised in a conservative religious sect. I can’t see any reason why she would not be able to equally make decisions within the marriage. because: 1. he’s said/done some rather batshit loony things, and guys like him tend to be pretty controlling, and 2. people are not Vulcans or robots. we’re products of our upbringing and environment, not strictly rational/logical machines. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/56 "2017-11-05T16:53:16Z")
They wuz hikin’ the appal-Asian trail! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/57 "2017-11-05T17:24:50Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Reported as spam/direct offsite. ( **thekohser2** ) The article he gives is pretty interesting though, if most of it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/58 "2017-11-05T21:09:53Z")
Wait, what makes that article spam? The fact that he wrote it? I don’t think the price for stupidity should be captivity and rape or whatever other horrible things they suffered, but I do want to say every interview I’ve read with Boyle makes him sound like an insufferable douche in love with his own martyrdom. Also, one of those articles specifically stated that the wife was permitted to home-educate the boys, which contradicts a claim here that they didn’t try to educate their children. The article was all about how proud they were that their kids were reasonably well educated considering the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/59 "2017-11-05T21:36:59Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > \*\*Wait, what makes that article spam? The fact that he wrote it? > \*\* > I don’t think the price for stupidity should be captivity and rape or whatever other horrible things they suffered, but I do want to say every interview I’ve read with Boyle makes him sound like an insufferable douche in love with his own martyrdom. > > Also, one of those articles specifically stated that the wife was permitted to home-educate the boys, which contradicts a claim here that they didn’t try to educate their children. The article was all about how proud they were that their kids were reasonably well educated considering the circumstances. He’s directing us to his site rather than hanging around for a discussion. He posted and left. The mods tend to frown on that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/60 "2017-11-05T22:58:03Z")
He only posted it today – how do you know he won’t be back? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/61 "2017-11-05T23:04:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > He only posted it today – how do you know he won’t be back? His post time was his last activity. It’s vanishingly rare that someone comes back. If there was any interest in having a discussion _here_, he would have hung around for a response for at least a few minutes. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053/62 "2017-11-06T00:05:32Z")
I’m with **running coach**. Odds are good the poster is just searching message boards for threads discussing Joshua Boyle and promoting his/her blog. It’s not the only possibility, but it is the most likely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joshua-boyle-and-caitlin-coleman-are-not-heroes/799053.md?page=4)