# Joss to direct The Avengers - Proof that God exists! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 14, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009 "2010-04-14T01:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/21 "2010-04-14T15:46:39Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > On this, we shall have to agree to disagree. > > [hijack] My assessment of the **Alien** films: **Alien** - A; **Aliens** - A-; **Alien³** - B-; **Alien: Resurrection** - D- (the gentleman’s F). And I’ve not seen **AvP** , and have no intention of ever doing so. [/hijack] So, _you’re_ the other person in the universe who doesn’t hate _Alien[sup]3[/sup]_! Nice to meet you! ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/22 "2010-04-14T15:55:09Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > So, _you’re_ the other person in the universe who doesn’t hate _Alien[sup]3[/sup]_! Nice to meet you! Likewise! I mean, yes, it’s flawed, but it’s also visionary (and it’s too damned bad that the producers/studio burned David Fincher so much that he no longer wants anything to do with it, because if he’d been allowed more input, I believe that it might have been on par with the first two), and it’s a _damned_ sight better, as is, than the steaming turd that Whedon shit out next. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/23 "2010-04-14T15:57:15Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > He’s a hack of the lowest order, in other words, and not so very different, in my mind, from the likes of Michael Bay and Brett Ratner. My seconds shall call on you in the morning, sirrah! ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/24 "2010-04-14T16:07:42Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > The other is the original **X-Men** , which I like _despite_ Whedon and his contributing one of the most grating dialog clunkers in recent memory (which was referred to up-thread). It should be pointed out that Whedon’s intended delivery of that line was very different from the way it ended up in the film. Singer directed it as an action punchline - a big, slow, dramatic delivery backed by bellowing wind and intense music. “THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYTHING ELSE!” Pow…? In contrast, Whedon had written the line as an offhand remark. Essentially, Storm was supposed to say, “What happens to a Toad when it gets hit by lightning?” Then she electrocutes Darth Maul, and adds (with some disappointment and perhaps a bit of a smirk), “Oh. The same thing that happens to everything else.” Still not a great line, sure. But it works far better than what ended up in the movie. > [@](#): > > As for all the rest? Couldn’t get into either of his most vaunted and personal creations ( **Buffy** and **Firefly** ), I haven’t seen **Dollhouse** or **Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog** , and a actively loathe his single-handed fuck up of **Alien: Resurrection** and his tarnishing, however slightly, the reputation of a good director (Jean-Pierre Jeunet) in the process.. Heh. I’ve always heard that the fault for “Alien Resurrection” ran the other way - Whedon turned in a script that everyone involved with the previous Alien movies loved (including Weaver, who only signed onto the movie after reading Whedon’s script). But when the original director, Danny Boyle, dropped out, the producers hired Jeunet instead. Jeunet is indeed an excellent director, but he’s known more for dark fantasy and comedy than for sci-fi action extravaganzas. Jeunet ended up dramatically reworking the film (including devising multiple new endings and skewing it towards black comedy). So the film was “Whedon’s” only in the sense that he wrote the original treatment and script; but the fact that it was hugely reworked suggests to me that most of the blame for the shittiness of the final product can be laid at the feet of Jeunet, as well as a production staff that couldn’t decide what sort of movie they were making. Even a good director can churn out a load of crap when he’s facing (a) an unfamiliar language for the first time, (b) a script that he insists on rewriting, and (c) schizophrenic producers. Double so when the movie is a big-budget blockbuster, over which production companies tend to demand a high degree of control - usually to the chagrin of directors, writers and actors. Here’s Whedon’s perspective, FWIW: > [@Joss Whedon](#): > > It wasn’t a question of doing everything differently, although they changed the ending; it was mostly a matter of doing everything wrong. They said the lines…mostly…but they said them all wrong. And they cast it wrong. And they designed it wrong. And they scored it wrong. They did everything wrong that they could possibly do. There’s actually a fascinating lesson in filmmaking, because everything that they did reflects back to the script or looks like something from the script, and people assume that, if I hated it, then they’d changed the script…but it wasn’t so much that they’d changed the script; it’s that they just executed it in such a ghastly fashion as to render it almost unwatchable. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/25 "2010-04-14T16:08:47Z")
Yet another reason I loathe the man (from [this article](http://www.cracked.com/article/166_5-reasons-it-sucks-being-joss-whedon-fan/)): > [@](#): > > Alien Resurrection is just as shitty. But that’s not Joss’s fault. According to him: “They said the lines … mostly … but they said them all wrong,” he said, regarding his script for Alien 4: KY-Shitfest in Space, before going on to say, “They cast it wrong. And they designed it wrong. And they scored it wrong. They did everything wrong that they could possibly do.” So according to Joss, putting Michael Wincott, Ron Perlman, Brad Dourif, J.E. Freeman and Sigourney Weaver in your ALIEN movie is horrible casting. And the director, who also directed City of Lost Children, might as well be Helen Keller. But the writer, the guy who gave Ripley a robovag sidekick more annoying than C-3P0, and made the main villain a fucking Muppet Baby? You insult him in a dream, you better wake up and apologize. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/26 "2010-04-14T16:10:36Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > It should be pointed out that Whedon’s intended delivery of that line was very different from the way it ended up in the film. Singer directed it as an action punchline - a big, slow, dramatic delivery backed by bellowing wind and intense music. “THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYTHING ELSE!” Pow…? > > In contrast, Whedon had written the line as an offhand remark. Essentially, Storm was supposed to say, “What happens to a Toad when it get’s hit by lightning?” Then she electrocutes Darth Maul, and adds (with some disappointment and perhaps a bit of a smirk), “Oh. The same thing that happens to everything else.” > > Still not a great line, sure. But it works far better than what ended up in the movie. > > Heh. I’ve always heard that the fault ran the other way - Whedon turned in a script that everyone involved with the previous Alien movies loved (including Weaver, who only signed onto the movie after reading Whedon’s script). But when the original director, Danny Boyle, dropped out, the producers hired Jeunet instead. Jeunet is indeed an excellent director, but he’s known more for dark fantasy and comedy than for sci-fi action extravaganzas. Jeunet ended up dramatically reworking the film (including devising multiple new endings and skewing it towards black comedy). So the film was “Whedon’s” only in the sense that he wrote the original treatment and script; but the fact that it was hugely reworked suggests to me that most of the blame for the shittiness of the final product can be laid at the feet of Jeunet, as well as a production staff that couldn’t decide what sort of movie they were making. Even a good director can churn out a load of crap when he’s facing (a) an unfamiliar language for the first time, (b) a script that he insists on rewriting, and (c) schizophrenic producers. Double so when the movie is a big-budget blockbuster, over which production companies tend to demand a high degree of control - usually to the chagrin of directors, writers and actors. > > Here’s Whedon’s perspective, FWIW: Ah, I see. _Not his fault_. Thanks for reiterating the point I made in my last post. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/27 "2010-04-14T16:35:17Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Ah, I see. _Not his fault_. > > Thanks for reiterating the point I made in my last post. 😉 Okay - got it. **MTCicero** = not a fan. Wasn’t sure before. Am now. Next? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/28 "2010-04-14T16:37:52Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Ah, I see. _Not his fault_. > > Thanks for reiterating the point I made in my last post. 😉 Cute, but X-Men _ **isn’t** _ his fault. He wasn’t the credited writer (and the WGA is very serious about who does and does not get credit) and he wasn’t the director. He had nothing to do with the movie besides writing a shitty line that the movie’s credited screenwriter and director decided to keep. As for Alien 4, you’re the first guy I’ve ever seen seriously claim that the writer is the one who holds all the power in the moviemaking process. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/29 "2010-04-14T16:48:17Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > As for Alien 4, you’re the first guy I’ve ever seen seriously claim that the writer is the one who holds all the power in the moviemaking process. We’re you not even reading what Whedon himself said? They _didn’t change a word of what he’d written_. And my problem with the movie was not the acting quality, was not the look of the film, or the costume choices, or the composition of the shots. My problem was with the _story_, the _dialogue_, which, IIRC, is the responsibility of… um, hold on… don’t tell me… oh! I remember! _The screenwriter_. But like Joss said, it’s _not his fault_, though. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/30 "2010-04-14T16:49:23Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Okay - got it. **MTCicero** = not a fan. Wasn’t sure before. Am now. > > Next? Thanks, Dad. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/31 "2010-04-14T16:51:28Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > We’re you not even reading what Whedon himself said? They _didn’t change a word of what he’d written_. And my problem with the movie was not the acting quality, was not the look of the film, or the costume choices, or the composition of the shots. My problem was with the _story_, the _dialogue_, which, IIRC, is the responsibility of… um, hold on… don’t tell me… oh! I remember! _The screenwriter_. Actually, no. In a Hollywood movie, once the screenwriter submits his script, the director has full control over how that script is produced. For example, you have a problem with the alien-human hybrid. But Whedon had nothing to do with that, it was entirely the creation of the special effects team and the… wait for it… director. And even in the Whedon quote you’ve given us, he says they changed some things. But doesn’t elaborate on exactly what things. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/32 "2010-04-14T16:59:14Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Actually, no. In a Hollywood movie, once the screenwriter submits his script, the director has full control over how that script is produced. For example, you have a problem with the alien-human hybrid. But Whedon had nothing to do with that, it was entirely the creation of the special effects team and the… wait for it… director. > > And even in the Whedon quote you’ve given us, he says they changed some things. But doesn’t elaborate on exactly what things. > [@](#): > > “They said the lines … mostly … but they said them all wrong,” he said It seems they didn’t change all that much, again, according to the man himself. Look, I do know enough about movies and how they’re made to know that the director (or the producers, or the film company) almost always has the final say, and that the screenwriter is usually low man on the totem pole. But Whedon seems to have a real problem accepting the fact that he must shoulder some of the blame, too. To hear him tell it, the blame for any project that he’s been a part of’s shittiness is practically anyone’s _but_ his. I mean, come on, even Uwe Boll, who inarguably makes some supremely shitty movies, doesn’t go around blaming the actors, or the DP, or the caterers. But Joss is too much of a douchebag, apparently, to accept _any_ measure of blame for his bombs (and let us not forget that they are many). ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/33 "2010-04-14T17:06:19Z")
… Yeah… sorry to interrupt the dick waving. Don’t judge Whedon the director because of some script work he did, judge him for his directing work. Firefly, Serenity, the episode of the Office that he did, etc etc. He’s a write with an ear for dialogue buta writer who isn’t also the director has no say in how his written words are said. I think Favreau would have done a better job with the Avengers but Whedon knows how to handle ensembles. My hope is that he is self-aware enough not to shoe-horn his pets into the cast. The Avengers don’t have a kickass warrior woman in any iconic line-up. If Serenity girl or Faith the Vampire Slayer show up in anything other than a cameo I gurantee you them movie is not going to rise to anything other than ‘passable.’ ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/34 "2010-04-14T17:08:03Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Thanks, Dad. Anytime. Joss has had his hand in some turkeys, bombs, etc. And he has been central to some wonderful successes - IMHO and the opinion of a lot of others - YMMV. Clearly this speaks to all the moving parts that go into getting a movie made. You don’t like him - got it. I like the fact that he is known for dialogue, certain types of plot twists/reversals and the craft of keeping a plot moving along. I can see where those particular capabilities could lend themselves to a fun, cool Avengers. Could it still be screwed up - either because Whedon bobbles it, or the moving parts don’t come together well? Sure. But I see the possibilities. If you want to start an I Hate Joss thread - go for it; you will have plenty of folks right beside you. But this is supposed to be a Yay Joss is Involved thread - quit threadshitting and hijacking. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/35 "2010-04-14T17:09:09Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > I mean, come on, even Uwe Boll, who inarguably makes some supremely shitty movies, doesn’t go around blaming the actors, or the DP, or the caterers. …Uwe Boll makes EXACTLY the kind of movies he wants to make. In his estimation he makes effective movies. Why would he blame anyone? His movies succeed at their goals-- in his mind. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/36 "2010-04-14T17:12:40Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > Don’t judge Whedon the director because of some script work he did, judge him for his directing work. Firefly, Serenity, the episode of the Office that he did, etc etc. I have. I’ve watched most of the first season of **Buffy**. I kept waiting for it to get as good as I’d been lead to believe it was, but it never, ever did. I didn’t care one whit about any of the characters, and I was repeatedly denied the pleasure of losing myself in the story because Whedon’s self-consciously “snappy” dialogue kept getting in the way. Ditto for **Firefly** , for the same reasons. Hell, I even, after all of this, tried to get into **Astonishing X-Men** , because I love the X-Men so, and I couldn’t, and for the same confounding reasons. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/37 "2010-04-14T17:16:36Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Anytime. > > Joss has had his hand in some turkeys, bombs, etc. And he has been central to some wonderful successes - IMHO and the opinion of a lot of others - YMMV. Clearly this speaks to all the moving parts that go into getting a movie made. > > You don’t like him - got it. I like the fact that he is known for dialogue, certain types of plot twists/reversals and the craft of keeping a plot moving along. I can see where those particular capabilities could lend themselves to a fun, cool Avengers. Could it still be screwed up - either because Whedon bobbles it, or the moving parts don’t come together well? Sure. But I see the possibilities. > > If you want to start an I Hate Joss thread - go for it; you will have plenty of folks right beside you. But this is supposed to be a Yay Joss is Involved thread - quit threadshitting and hijacking. Fair enough. I’ll take my ball of desperation and disgust and go elsewhere. And who knows? He may actually end up putting out a really good, fun movie. I certainly would like him to, considering how much I love the Avengers. It’s just that I’m a pessimist, and I don’t see that happening, so I can’t help but hope he gets **Wonder Woman** ’d off of this project, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/38 "2010-04-14T17:41:43Z")
> [@](#): > > And I had thought his name was Benjamin Franklin Pierce. Learn something new every day. No, no… Natty Bumppo. ---
**Author:** ![vdgg81](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3d9bf3/32.png) [@vdgg81](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vdgg81)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/39 "2010-04-14T18:20:19Z")
I’m dismayed. I like Joss Whedon. I liked _Buffy_, \*Angel \*and \*Dollhouse \*(\*Firefly \*never did anything for me), but Whedon has a pretty distinctive voice and I don’t think it’s at all appropriate to a big, dumb action movie like I hope \*Avengers \*will be. Ideally, I’d love to have a movie Avengers be basically Millar’s _The Ultimates_ directed by whoever did _Iron Man_. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009/40 "2010-04-14T18:40:03Z")
I’d personally hate it if they went with an Ultimates bent to the store. All those characters were dicks. Cap’s a dick. Iron Mans’ a dick. Hulk is a rapey dick. Pym’s a dick. Hawkeye’s a crazy dick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joss-to-direct-the-avengers-proof-that-god-exists/536009.md?page=3)