Do you have any idea how many people worship Allah and never become terrorists?
The number one threat of violence is terrorism? Let’s look at the USA stats.
2007: USA has 1,613,100 violent crime incidents. Cite
2007: USA has 16,929 murders. Cite
1968-2006: USA has 3,227 terrorism-related deaths. Average deaths per year: 85. Cite
So you are far more likely to be murdered by an American than a terrorist. Do you cross the street when you see an American coming towards you?
Okay then, how about “Muslim terrorists are the number one threat of planned, organized, religiously-oriented violence, murder and mayhem intentionally targeted toward innocent victims in countries all over the face of the planet.”
:rolleyes:
We’re not fighting a war in Afghanistan over random street crime, you know.
Why are we? The terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. They were not trained in Afghanistan ,The planning was done in Europe and the US. The airplane pilot training was in exotic locations like Florida and California.
The things:
The Taliban
Osama bin Laden
Training grounds
Hard to believe after all these years that someone still wants to know why we’re in Afghanistan. Even people who don’t agree with the war (and there will always are some) know why we’re there.
Fair enough, but what do you think Mr. Williams would say in response to such a stated fear of black men? I’ll tell you.
I think the above is a fair assessment of racial fears, and the same principles can be applied to Muslims on airplanes. Also, what Giraffe said. If you have some sincere, but bigoted idea, like you’re scared to pick up black guys in your cab, or Muslims on planes scare you, be smart enough to shut your yap about it, particularly when you work for a credible news organization. Failure to do so may un-credible the news organization.
Bin Laden in Pakistan.
When did the Taliban a local organization attack us? We attacked them plenty thouggh.
Training grounds. Yep ,the stock footage of arabs on monkey bars. The 911 guys were trained in America.
I would say I can’t believe someone does not know better, but in your case, it is as expected.
The same principles, perhaps. But there are some important distinctions that you fail to make here.
The most important of these is the distinction between feelings and actions. Williams says:
I agree with this. But refusing to pick someone up is not the same thing as a generalized, irrational nervousness. I would argue against any cabdriver who refused, as a rule to pick up young black men. But if a cabdriver expressed a nervousness, based on personal experience or on general crime rates in his city, about young black men, i wouldn’t automatically label him a bigot, even while trying to explain to him why his position was not rational.
Williams made very clear, in his discussion with O’Reilly, that he doesn’t advocate treating Muslims any differently because of his fears. He explicitly states that we should not extrapolate the actions of a few extremists to the religion as a whole, and he also says that everyone should be treated equally under the law. He effectively acknowledges the irrationality of his fears.
I’d be interested to hear what Williams has to say about a cabdriver who is nervous about young black men, but who does not act on that nervousness, and who recognizes its irrationality. If he considers that bigotry, then he’s a hypocrite.
I think it’s a shame that people have these irrational fears, but it happens. And the fact that it happens is a sign of a more general cultural malaise, at least among certain section of the population. But, given that some people DO have these fears, i think it’s actually better for society that they get aired so they can be fought.
I have, quite a few times in my life, been walking down the street alone at night, and seen a woman coming in the opposite direction. On some of those occasions, the woman crossed to the other side of the street as soon as she saw me. This is, in some ways, indicative of an irrational fear. The vast majority of men do not assault strange women on the streets after dark, and i certainly don’t.
But, at the same time, i understand and respect the nervousness that causes her to do this. It’s better for her, in this case, to be safe than sorry, and her crossing the street does not harm me in any way. Similarly, when i am approaching a woman from behind on a dark street, i have been known to cross the street myself in order to avoid walking up behind her, simply so that i spare her the fear that comes from hearing those footsteps gaining on her.
Now, if this same woman agitated to prevent men from walking on the streets after dark, her nervousness would become a problem. But, as long as she doesn’t, i respect her fears, and am sympathetic to them, even while i understand that the vast majority of men won’t give her any trouble. I recognize that the analogy here is not perfect, but i think it makes my point well enough.
I’m curious what you think can be done to “fight” these fears.
If NPR thought that Williams acted badly, they did not have the right to fire him. They needed Fox to tell them it was OK. Fox is final arbiter in America.
Williams as a black should have known how bad it is to be feared because of how you look. He should have understood that judging muslims by their garb ,damns a lot of innocent people. It was wrong.
The canning may be due to his frequent appearances on Fox. Fox has no respect as a neutral site and Williams was giving Fox NPR cache. Since he was a long term NPR employee , the implication could be that Fox was tacitly getting NPR sanction or approval.
Agreed. It’s very hard to find an exactly analogous situation, but where I was getting at was not the (very important) distinction between actions and perceptions. Part of his point was that it is lazy to be generally wary of people who look a certain way, and that behaviors should be a greater factor in your attitude toward others than looks alone.
I would be as well. Of course, I’m sure if you asked him now, he’d give an answer consistent with his response to Muslims on planes (whether or not it’s what he truly believes), and unfortunately, I do not have full transcripts of everything he has said, so if an exact analogy has come up, I do not have it.
People do, and it is a shame. Still, would it have not been better for him to state that many people do double-takes when they see someone who they believe to be Muslim on a plane? Or to cite any number of studies regarding general American anxiety toward Islam? People having those fears is unsettling, him having those ideas is unsettling, and him, employed by NPR espousing them on television is most unsettling. To say “I am nervous when I see them at the airport” struck me as unfortunate and unwise.
Overall, though, I understand your point that one is not necessarily bigoted if they have a visceral, deep-seated nervousness around groups who have been associated with danger, and agree 45%. I suspect where we might separate entirely is I’d be willing to be one million internet dollars that Williams frowns upon fear of black people, even if those with the fear do not treat black people poorly.
No, he’s scared of muslims because he’s a moron. And if you think he’s right to be scared of muslims on planes, you’re a moron too.
For starters, did you see the way those suspicious muslims dressed on 9/11? Slacks and button up shirts. He’d be better off being scared of someone dressed in business casual.
Secondly, he used to work for NPR. If I were him, I’d be more worried of being killed by a Glenn Beck fan.
Third, he’d be more likely to die of food poisoning, car accident, heart attack, or just about any fucking thing other than a muslim on a plane. Unless this guy gets equally nervous getting in his car and driving to a restaurant, he’s clearly not thinking.
Fourth, if you have to preface something by stating how not bigoted you are, odds are good you probably shouldn’t say it at all. You certainly shouldn’t be saying it on national television.
Honestly I think this guy was fired for being terminally stupid. I wonder whether or not he’s got the brain power to tie his shoes every morning.
Yes, because fears are always extremely rational.
What I don’t get is why I should care about this.
I listen to NPR but I’ve never cared one whit about Juan Williams’ “feelings.” Thoughts yes, feelings no. I may have cared a little bit about the late Daniel Schorr’s feelings, but he’d been around long enough to earn that respect. Juan Williams, not so much. As far as I’m concerned, Williams’ crime was in wasting my time nattering on on a show I don’t watch about his feelings. Let him ramble about them on Fox. Its no skin off my nose.
I’m not quite clear on the point you’re making here.
Are you arguing that, because you don’t care about his feelings, what he said has no real bearing on his ability to work as a journalist and commentator for NPR?
Or are you arguing that, because you don’t care about his feelings, he had no business discussing them on a TV program, and should have been fired?
I am arguing neither but I made my point poorly so I can see why you’re confused by what I wrote.
I am saying his feelings are of no interest to me. As an NPR listener, his feelings are of no particular moment to me. As such, they have no place on the airwaves. Williams’ feelings aren’t offensive, rather, they are pedestrian and boring. I’d have fired him for that. If I wanted to listen to boring I’d listen to the all Montovani station.
I’m also saying that NPR personnel and/or employee discipline moves aren’t of any interest to me, generally speaking. Reporters and commentators come and go. I liked Bob Edwards and NPR fired him anyway and I groused about it for a little but got over it in 5 minutes. Williams’ firing didn’t upset me at all anymore than the firing of a minor league hockey coach, so why it the news of the Williams matter clogging up the airwaves and the internet. It is a stupid thing for anyone outside the Williams’ household to get worked up about one way or the other. IMHO. YMMV.
One more thing: Juan Williams has to my mind never said anything on NPR that was remotely memorable, so why is his firing such a cause celebre? Nina Totenberg is being blasted for some bad remarks she made in 1995 about Jesse Helms’ family in reaction to Helms’ comments, but Totenberg does consistently excellent Supreme Court reporting so I can forgive her one error in judgment. Williams has done nothing - prior to his firing - of any note whatsoever.
If it’s an irrational fear, then shut up about it. It’s just that simple. I don’t go to the doctors office sounding off about my irrational fear of needles. I don’t freak out in a car when I drive across a high bridge because I’m terrified that the car will go careening off the side. Of course that last one is still more likely than me getting killed by someone in muslim garb.
Besides, he’s the one that says he gets nervous when he sees someone in “muslim garb.” I’m just pointing out that these people didn’t get on the plane dressed like the ayatollah. They got on dressed like Jim from accounting.
The NPR CEO has now spoken on this matter, defending his decision to terminate Williams but expressing regret for how he handled it.
I find this entire conversation frustrating. Half of Williams’s defenders say that he can’t be held responsible for his fears because they are irrational. The other half say his fears are justified and rational.
How about y’all fight it out then come back and argue?