# Judaism question, of a sorts... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2000, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070 "2000-11-07T04:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/1 "2000-11-07T04:46:20Z")
I just want to state, right now, that this is not going to degenerate into a discussion on anti-semitism. I am not an anti-semite, nor am I pro semite… the only people I feel strongly about are folks I know, and idiots. everyone else will just have to get in line to meet me… However, I spent most of a summer many years ago debating the question as to wether Jewish is a race, or a religion. I took the side of Jewish=race, whereas he took Jewish=religion. The debate went nowhere fast, cause we were bored high schoolers… but, I have wondered about it ever since… what is it about Judaism that makes it a race, as well as a religion? Ethiopians, Poles, Germans, Americans all describe themselves as Jews first, if that is their faith… why is that? Thanks folks!! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/2 "2000-11-07T05:18:49Z")
From **To Be A Jew** , Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin, Basic Books, ©1972: > [@](#): > > This sense of kinship felt by the Jewish people may be more of a “mystical” experience than a rationally definable one. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Jews have never quite been able to fit into the convenient categories used by historians or sociologists to define nations, races, religions, and other social groupings. Except for the fact that the Jews obviously do not constitute a race (for race is a biological designation), the Jews are _not just_ a religious faith, even though they are that; and they are _not just_ a nation, even though they are that too, according to the definitions of the term “nation.” The problem is usually resolved by using the term “people” instead of either “faith” or “nation.” Of course, another question could be “Why is it important to put a label on the Jews?” (I am not suggesting that all inquiry is malicious, but so often people who have attempted to label the Jews have done it with sinister motives, that it behooves us to ask anyone who is creating “labels,” “For just what purpose are the labels to be used?”) ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/3 "2000-11-07T06:25:28Z")
Judaism is certainly a religion. Many, but not all, Jews belong to the Semitic ethnicity. According to the Bible, all of the Israelites were descended from Jacob; all of the non-Jews from other people. Thus the “family resemblance” among the Jewish people. While the story of Jacob and his twelve children is an etiological myth, the ethnic similarity of the Jews is still evident. The reason that _other_ religions do not consider themselves a race is that they proselytize, or at the very least readily accept converts. Thus there is a great deal more ethnic homogeneity within Judaism than within any other religion. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/4 "2000-11-07T10:41:41Z")
umm, Tristan- cosider doing a search next time, 1st. We have covered this Op several times in the last 6 months, and very recently. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/5 "2000-11-07T12:27:29Z")
I second what Daniel said. But, since you already posted, allow me to reply. Tristan said: > [@](#): > > . I took the side of Jewish=race, whereas he took Jewish=religion. You were wrong; he was right. There, that was easy, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/6 "2000-11-07T13:30:26Z")
Actually, David, _you’re_ wrong. Hmm. Hey, that WAS easy! ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/7 "2000-11-07T13:52:03Z")
Yes, it was. The difference is that I was correct and you are not, for reasons explained briefly here and in numerous other threads. Judaism is a religion, not a race. You can’t convert to a different race, last time I checked. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/8 "2000-11-07T15:12:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Judaism is a religion, not a race. You can’t convert to a different race, last time I checked. No, you can’t - but you can marry into a family, or be adopted by a tribe. Listen, we have two diametrically opposite points of view. And it’s not just you and me. Most Jews are divided on this issue. Judaism today is centered on two focal points: America and Israel. Both countries contain the same amount of Jews, and together they comprise of some %80 of the global Jewish population. I don’t want to go into the various reasons, but the fact is that most Americans see Jews as a religion, while most Israelis see Jews as a race, or a tribe, or an ethnic group. I’ve known quite a few atheist Jews. My father-in-law, for example, retired Army major and lapsed communist (he realized at a young are that capitalists make more money) is as hard-core in his unbelief as you are. But if you’d ask him whether or not he was a Jew, he’d answer “And what the hell should I be? Armenian?” And he’s not alone in that sentiment. David Ben-Gurien himself was an agnostic at most; I doubt you’d claim he was not a Jew. This argument will not be settled neither here on this board nor in the real world - at least not in the forseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/9 "2000-11-07T15:21:10Z")
Alessan said: > [@](#): > > No, you can’t - but you can marry into a family, or be adopted by a tribe. Which has nothing to do with race. > [@](#): > > Listen, we have two diametrically opposite points of view. And it’s not just you and me. Most Jews are divided on this issue. Not really. In fact, in every time this topic has come up here, I cannot ever remember any Jewish person taking the “race” stand. Instead, people have patiently explained and re-explained (and re-re-explained) why Judaism is a religion, not a race. > [@](#): > > Judaism today is centered on two focal points: America and Israel. Both countries contain the same amount of Jews, and together they comprise of some %80 of the global Jewish population. Actually, I’m pretty sure that the U.S. contains more Jews than Israel. > [@](#): > > I don’t want to go into the various reasons, but the fact is that most Americans see Jews as a religion, while most Israelis see Jews as a race, or a tribe, or an ethnic group. I’d like to see a citation for this claim. > [@](#): > > I’ve known quite a few atheist Jews. My father-in-law, for example, retired Army major and lapsed communist (he realized at a young are that capitalists make more money) is as hard-core in his unbelief as you are. But if you’d ask him whether or not he was a Jew, he’d answer “And what the hell should I be? Armenian?” And he’s not alone in that sentiment. David Ben-Gurien himself was an agnostic at most; I doubt you’d claim he was not a Jew. I fall into the same category – because I choose to, and because the Jewish religion defines me as a Jew due to my mother’s religion. But since you obviously didn’t know this – because I don’t often mention it – it’s pretty clear that I don’t _have_ to make reference to this religious aspect. I sometimes _choose_ to, but only because it shows my family’s religious heritage, not because it is a racial characteristic. > [@](#): > > This argument will not be settled neither here on this board nor in the real world - at least not in the forseeable future. Actually, it has been settled. Numerous times. As I noted earlier, you can’t convert into a racial group. But a caucasian can be Jewish, a black person can be Jewish, a Native American can be Jewish, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/10 "2000-11-07T15:52:49Z")
David, I know how Israeli Jews think because I was born there and have lived there for 20 of my 26 years. Israelis, as a rule, think of Jews as a people, or a race, or a tribe. I know that these are three separate things; however, none of them are religious. You may say that Israeli Jews, as a nation, are wrong. That is your right. Just remember - this board is not the world. And don’t go on about conversion - are you familiar with the phrase “The exception which proves the rule”? Converting to Judaism is _hard_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/11 "2000-11-07T15:54:16Z")
Oh and BTW - the Jewish population of the United States is about 6 million and dropping; The Jewish population of Israel is 5 million and rising. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/12 "2000-11-07T20:44:01Z")
Last I checked, 5 million does not equal 6 million. But anyway, you said: > [@](#): > > David, I know how Israeli Jews think because I was born there and have lived there for 20 of my 26 years. Israelis, as a rule, think of Jews as a people, or a race, or a tribe. I know that these are three separate things; however, none of them are religious. You may say that Israeli Jews, as a nation, are wrong. That is your right. Just remember - this board is not the world. I would love to know who these “as a rule” Israelis are. Hell, they can’t agree on _anything_ over there, between the Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Sephardic, Ethiopian, secular, etc., but you’re telling me they all agree to be wrong on this? Baloney. > [@](#): > > And don’t go on about conversion - are you familiar with the phrase “The exception which proves the rule”? Converting to Judaism is hard. Hard according to whom? I know more than a few people who have converted (off the top of my head, I can think of about a dozen). And no matter how hard or easy it is, the fact of the matter is that _you can do it_. Let me see you convert to being an African-American, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/13 "2000-11-07T21:08:52Z")
I don’t understand why this argument is occuring. The Jewish religion orignated in a specific geopgraphic area. Today, some people who are Jewish show ethnic traits associated with that geographic area. And from this, the conclusion is that Jewishness is a race? Are Syrians Palestinians and Jordanians also part of that race? They would have to be Jewish too, wouldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/14 "2000-11-07T21:35:49Z")
Judaism is most certainly a religion. Of that, I can’t imagine anyone has any doubt. Is it a race? Don’t know. I suppose it can be argued either way. If it is a race, which comes first, religion or the race? I would answer religion. A tougher question would be which are you: A Jewish American or an American Jew? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/15 "2000-11-07T21:42:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I would love to know who these “as a rule” Israelis are. Hell, they can’t agree on anything over there, between the Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Sephardic, Ethiopian, secular, etc., but you’re telling me they all agree to be wrong on this? Baloney. All those people think of themselves as Jews. Jews who visit different synagogues, Jews whose parents came from different countries, Jews with different beliefs, but primerally Jews. Now, I refuse to be insulted by the fact that you assume I don’t know how people in my own country think (I’m not going to belittle this conversation by insinuating that you may be suggesting that I’m lying). I canot give you cites, since I don’t know if such a survey has ever been done. However, I can tell you how I came to my conclusion, beside just general observation and intuition: 1. I’ve known quite a few Jewish atheists, but I’ve never met a person with Jewish parents who claimed he was not a Jew. 2. People refer to the “Jewish-Arab Conflict”, not the “Jewish-Muslim Conflict”. Arabs are a race, not a religion. 3. Israeli media and literature refer to the “Jewish People” and the “Jewish Faith” as two seperate things. 4. If you ask an Israeli what he is, he’d say Jew. 5. The Declaration of Independence refers to “The Jewish Nation”. 6. Jews have a seperate culture, language and set of customs. 7. People try to kill us brcause of our race. We’re not about to chicken out and say: “Who, us? Oh no - _we’re_ not a race, we’re only a religion! Please don’t kill us!” OK, David - I see you may have a problem with the word “race”. I can understand that. So just scratch it out, and replace it with the word “tribe”. The Navajo are a tribe, the Masai are a tribe, the Jews are a tribe. Tribes have unique customs, languages and beliefs. You can join a tribe, can’t you? That’s what converting to Judaism is - the religious aspect is just part of the process. On our 2000-year hiatus abroad, we’ve absorbed a bunch of different bloodlines, and you know what? It’s made us stronger. But we’re still a people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/16 "2000-11-07T21:55:34Z")
My apologies for my blatant use of italics tin my previous post. Bad me. BTW, Ender - American Jew. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/17 "2000-11-07T22:10:59Z")
IMHO, Judaism is a religion. As has been pointed out before by others in this thread, there are Jews of many diffrent races and, unlike a race, you can convert to Judaism. Besides being a religion, it is also an ethnicity. As has also been pointed out before, there are Jewish atheists. I don’t think they would consider themselves Jews in a religious sense, but in an ethnic sense. People who hate Jews tend to call them a race. Hitler and the Nazis didn’t care what religion you were practicing. If you had one Jewish grandparent, you were a Jew and went off to the camps. Another example: Go look at some of the more vile newsgroups on usenet (alt.revisionism, alt.flame.jews, alt.nationalism.white-power, etc.) All the crackpots who post there about the ZOG conspiracy mention that Madeline Albright is Jewish. Never mind the fact that she was raised as a Christian. Never mind the fact that _NO_ branch of Judaism considers her Jewish (her father was Jewish, but not her mother). Never mind the fact that she didn’t even know she had Jewish grandparents until she was in her 60s. They all consider her a Jew. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/18 "2000-11-07T22:15:42Z")
Since I have an abiding interest in questions of nationality and ethnicity let me pipe in – this seems to be a semantic war. Starters: race of course has no objective scientific standard but is popularly considered to be biologically grounded (in English language especially, translations raise issues). So converting to a race is non-sensical, but when race is subjective so… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > Arabs are a race, not a religion. Well not really, as I’ve seen quite readily in my recent business travels through the region, Arabs are an ethnicity based on mother tongue use of the Arabic language. They’re certainly not a race (in the most common sense of the word in English) since they come in all kinds of colors and features. (Well, true so are Black Americans, but then that’s why race in its popular meaning is so very, well, dumb and unfounded.) I think the term you need here is ethnic group, a nice little concept capturing the fuzzy way people build their identities: a dash of religion, a dash of language, a dash of some physical features… Often incoherent from a logical standpoint, but hey dat’s folks. Ethnic group captures the very subjective way people pick and choose among the oodles of means we find to seperate ourselves from our brethren and hate them for good measure… > [@](#): > > 1. Jews have a seperate culture, language and set of customs. Not to be a pill, but which language? Russian? Amharic? Hebrew (modern)? English? Seems to me that there are fuzzy boundaries. Not that this says much, but I thought I’d point it out. > [@](#): > > 1. People try to kill us brcause of our race. We’re not about to chicken out and say: “Who, us? Oh no - we’re not a race, we’re only a religion! Please don’t kill us!” This is a little off-base. It would seem to me that were the entire nation of Israel to convert to Islam conflict might go away. I don’t know if you can seperate the ethnic and religious aspects here. > [@](#): > > OK, David - I see you may have a problem with the word “race”. I can understand that. So just scratch it out, and replace it with the word “tribe”. No, replace it with Ethnic Group, a better more accurate term. > [@](#): > > The Navajo are a tribe, True, I think. > [@](#): > > the Masai are a tribe, False, ethnic group, there are Masai tribes (plural) but Masai is a language. Major problem with the way tribe gets used, applied to groups of folks who speak the same langauge but do not necessarily have the kind of connections which tribe really implies. Ethnic group is better. > [@](#): > > the Jews are a tribe. Only in a really abstract sense, ethnic group is a better term. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/19 "2000-11-07T22:27:12Z")
**Alessan** wrote a long rant that I was all ready to pick apart, until he finally got to the end and got the point: > [@](#): > > OK, David - I see you may have a problem with the word “race”. I can understand that. So just scratch it out, and replace it with the word “tribe”. The Navajo are a tribe, the Masai are a tribe, the Jews are a tribe. Tribes have unique customs, languages and beliefs. You can join a tribe, can’t you? That’s what converting to Judaism is - the religious aspect is just part of the process. You want to call it a “tribe”? Or, as was later suggested by Collounsbury, an “ethnic group”? Well, I guess it’s possible – but that’s not what I’ve been talking about. I’m talking very specifically about the term “race.” You’ve argued and argued for _that_ term, and just now you finally get around to essentially saying, “Oh, yeah, well, okay, I guess you’re right about _that_ term.” Well, hello! What do you think I’ve been talking about? Jeez. **Enderw23** said: > [@](#): > > A tougher question would be which are you: A Jewish American or an American Jew? Why is that a tougher question? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070/20 "2000-11-07T23:02:48Z")
Actuallt, David, I was reacting to your assertionthat Judaism was just a religion. Judaism _is_ a religion, but it’s also a lot more. I understand the aversion people here have to the term “race”. I can see how the term can be misleading and innacurate. I’m willing to accept “ethnic group”. It’s close enough to what I’m trying to convey. However, I still prefer “tribe” - it has a certain romantic appeal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-question-of-a-sorts/40070.md?page=2)