# Judaism rewards and punishments **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545 "2022-07-25T19:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/1 "2022-07-25T19:41:59Z")
In other thread, @Keeve states: > [@What convinced you to believe in God, if you didn't before?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-convinced-you-to-believe-in-god-if-you-didnt-before/968505/8): > > Judaism most certainly does believe in reward and punishment. The Jewish Bible is full of reminders of the rewards for those who do good, and the punishments for those who do bad. So the short answer is that I chose to gamble away my beloved cheeseburgers and Saturday tv shows on the chance of getting into heaven. This is not my understanding – I thought there wasn’t really an afterlife in Judaism and that virtue was basically its own reward. Can someone elaborate? @Keeve also states: > [@What convinced you to believe in God, if you didn't before?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-convinced-you-to-believe-in-god-if-you-didnt-before/968505/8): > > Jews don’t actively convert non-Jews because there’s no need to. As long as the non-Jew is doing those few things that God expects, there’s no need to burden them with all the extra stuff, and they’ll get the afterlife reward that they’ve worked for. OTOH, if a non-Jew sincerely wants to join the Jewish people, we welcome them. Two questions – If there is an afterlife, is being Jewish is worse than not being Jewish, because you have more responsibilities in order to get in? It seems like you would be better, Pascal’s wager-wise, being an atheist than a Jew, if the actual God is the Jewish one. Second, are you allowed to leave the religion and no longer follow those extra rules and responsibilities? If I were an observant Jew and really wanted to eat cheeseburgers, and I didn’t want to commit murder, could I renounce my faith and be relieved of those extra rules? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/2 "2022-07-25T19:48:48Z")
I’ll be happy to share what I know, and I welcome others to do so as well. But first, I wonder if this is better off in Factual Questions, given that it is asking about an established religion (even if we get some divergent responses). Mods? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/3 "2022-07-25T19:53:25Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > given that it is asking about an established religion (even if we get some divergent responses). Mods? If there will be divergent responses, it doesn’t sound like an FQ to me. Feel free to treat it like an FQ and bring cites to your responses, bible or Talmud quotes, I guess? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/4 "2022-07-25T20:09:08Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > If there is an afterlife, is being Jewish is worse than not being Jewish, because you have more responsibilities in order to get in? Judaism believes in playing fair. You get what you work for. A Jew who does all the basic stuff and all the extra stuff, therefore gets more reward than a non-Jew who does all the basic stuff. But the flip side is there too: The Jew who screws up is worse off than a non-Jew who screws up. > [@RitterSport](#): > > It seems like you would be better, Pascal’s wager-wise, being an atheist than a Jew, if the actual God is the Jewish one. Yes, and this is pointed out to prospective converts. > [@RitterSport](#): > > are you allowed to leave the religion and no longer follow those extra rules and responsibilities? Nope. If someone could opt out, that would destroy the concept of “obligation” and “requirement”. We believe that God isn’t merely suggesting these things, but commanding us. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/5 "2022-07-25T20:11:47Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Judaism believes in playing fair. You get what you work for. A Jew who does all the basic stuff and all the extra stuff, therefore gets more reward than a non-Jew who does all the basic stuff. But the flip side is there too: The Jew who screws up is worse off than a non-Jew who screws up. Can you provide the biblical support for this? I mean, obviously this doesn’t happen in real life. But, you didn’t address the afterlife comment at all. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/6 "2022-07-25T20:13:16Z")
Sometime tonight. I’m at work now. TTYL. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/7 "2022-07-25T20:13:36Z")
OK, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/8 "2022-07-25T20:14:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This is not my understanding – I thought there wasn’t really an afterlife in Judaism and that virtue was basically its own reward. This is correct. In a nutshell. You do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because of reward/punishment in the afterlife. Belief in an afterlife is hypothetical, not doctrinal. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/9 "2022-07-25T20:17:09Z")
The Jewish idea of an afterlife historically comes from a sort of murky, indistinct interpolation of Zoroastrian ideas. It’s not a fire & brimstone deal; Sheol is a sort of dead people and animal place without a lot happening. When the messiah comes, the righteous get to sit at the right hand of G-d, but it’s not so clear why that matters other than being righteous; it’s not like you’re going to party down with the deity in heaven. That said, “Two Jews, three opinions”–many contemporary Jews believe in some heavenish afterlife. Not surprisingly, Judaism stresses acts/deeds more than belief when defining who is a good Jew/person. Also, if you’re pretty sure this is the only life you get, appeals to reincarnation or a yummy afterlife where you’ll get your reward aren’t as compelling. > If there is an afterlife, is being Jewish is worse than not being Jewish, because you have more responsibilities in order to get in? It seems like you would be better, Pascal’s wager-wise, being an atheist than a Jew, if the actual God is the Jewish one. > > Second, are you allowed to leave the religion and no longer follow those extra rules and responsibilities? If I were an observant Jew and really wanted to eat cheeseburgers, and I didn’t want to commit murder, could I renounce my faith and be relieved of those extra rules? Maybe someone else has an answer to these questions, but my immediate reaction was, “If you’re of a Chosen people, the question of greater responsibility is a given and perhaps a plus.” As to the second, “Nu, so eat the cheeseburger already and stop kvetching.” I imagine this has to do with differences in Jewish and Christian “guilt,” “sin,” and “following the religion.” But there are many gradations of Judaism and they’ll get you different answers. ETA: I don’t really know how to express it, but these questions just feel so non-Jewish! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/10 "2022-07-25T20:25:09Z")
> [@susan](#): > > ETA: I don’t really know how to express it, but these questions just feel so non-Jewish! Ha! Probably because we’re all so surrounded by Christianity all the time. I have an auxiliary question: My mother is a non-observant Jew, never had a bat mitzvah. My father isn’t Jewish. I’ve never been through any Jewish rituals at all, not even, you know, ouch. Am I still stuck with the extra responsibilities? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/11 "2022-07-25T20:30:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > My mother is a non-observant Jew, never had a bat mitzvah. My father isn’t Jewish. I’ve never been through any Jewish rituals at all, not even, you know, ouch. Am I still stuck with the extra responsibilities? Yes. Jewishness is defined by either having a Jewish mother, or by converting. (I don’t know if that’s the answer you wanted to hear, so I’ll just stop there for now.) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/12 "2022-07-25T20:35:52Z")
Dang. Oh well. When you return after work, your view of the afterlife seems to conflict with other posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/13 "2022-07-25T20:39:44Z")
Two Jews, three opinions, but a belief in a concretely defined heavenly afterlife is definitely a third opinion. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/14 "2022-07-25T20:41:10Z")
Look at it this way–you can claim the Right of Return and immigrate to Israel if the US gets too disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/15 "2022-07-25T20:41:11Z")
I don’t like labels, but most would call me Orthodox, and that’s the view I’ll be giving. But even the non-Orthodox, who feel that Judaism can also go via one’s father, don’t discount the matrilineal side. And unless I’m mistaken, they don’t consider it optional either (except insofar as they consider the whole religion to be optional). ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/16 "2022-07-25T20:45:00Z")
Interesting. OK, I’ll keep that in my back pocket, just in case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/17 "2022-07-25T20:46:14Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Yes. Jewishness is defined by either having a Jewish mother, or by converting. Depends on who you ask. ---
**Author:** ![Jingleheimer-Schmidt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Jingleheimer-Schmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jingleheimer-Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/18 "2022-07-25T20:46:46Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > When you return after work, your view of the afterlife seems to conflict with other posters in this thread. His view of the afterlife is very much in line with traditional Jewish belief, going back thousands of years. The opinion expressed by other posters in this thread is the position of modern reform Judaism. There’s nothing explicit in the Bible about an afterlife. The Talmudists found allusions to it, but the lack of explicit mention led to later claims that they had been influenced by Zoroastorian beliefs during the Exile. The OP seems to conflate two matters. The Bible is full of statements about rewards for being good and punishments for being bad, but they are (at least explicitly) about rewards in this world and not in any Afterlife. So the notion that Judaism doesn’t believe in rewards and punishments is contradicted by the Bible itself (in many many places), but the notion that Judaism doesn’t believe in an afterlife is contracticted by later Talmudic teachings but not (explicitly) by anything in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/19 "2022-07-25T20:49:58Z")
> [@Jingleheimer-Schmidt](#): > > His view of the afterlife is very much in line with traditional Jewish belief, going back thousands of years. The opinion expressed by other posters in this thread is the position of modern reform Judaism. Can you provide any cites about the existence of a Jewish afterlife, either from the bible or from ancient writings? Is it like Christian heaven, all bliss and harps, or is it something else? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/20 "2022-07-25T20:55:00Z")
Here are two starting points for the traditional views: > **[Is There a Jewish Afterlife? | My Jewish Learning](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/life-after-death/)** > > Jewish Life After Death. Jewish Afterlife and Eschatology. Jewish View on Next Life. Jewish Ideas and Beliefs > **[Maimonides #13 - Resurrection of the Dead - Aish.com](https://aish.com/48929597/)** > > Why is it necessary to bring the body and soul together for ultimate eternal reward? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545.md?page=2)