# Judaism rewards and punishments **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545 "2022-07-25T19:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/21 "2022-07-25T20:57:13Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > If I were an observant Jew and really wanted to eat cheeseburgers, and I didn’t want to commit murder, could I renounce my faith and be relieved of those extra rules? A slight aside, but something that just occurred to me to wonder: Could you have a cheeseburger if the meat and the cheese came from different species? My very vague recollection is something about not seething the calf in the milk of the mother. I’d look for it, but I’m not sure what search terms to use to get results that are Talmud or commentary. (Commentary?) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/22 "2022-07-25T21:00:32Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Could you have a cheeseburger if the meat and the cheese came from different species? I think you cannot. > [@Keeve](#): > > Here are two starting points for the traditional views: I read the first one and it is full of hedging and ambiguities. Your flat statements about Jews believing in the afterlife seem disproven by your own cites. At best, you could state that some Jews believe in some sort of afterlife (the nature of which is unknown and maybe unknowable) which is available to the righteous or to everyone (depending on the Jewish scholar you’re referencing), and none of that is in the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/23 "2022-07-25T21:02:47Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I read the first one and it is full of hedging and ambiguities True. The truth is that the sources are unclear. I could give more places to look, but it might be better to just google “judaism afterlife” and see which hits make sense to _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Jingleheimer-Schmidt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Jingleheimer-Schmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jingleheimer-Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/24 "2022-07-25T21:04:55Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Can you provide any cites about the existence of a Jewish afterlife, either from the bible or from ancient writings? Is it like Christian heaven, all bliss and harps, or is it something else? Little bit of it at: [Heaven in Judaism - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Judaism) The problem with nailing down the details is that most of what’s described is generally assumed to metaphorical. The general idea is “Heaven is a lot better than Hell”, and any details beyond that are unnecessary and probably incomprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/25 "2022-07-25T21:07:39Z")
I have to step away for a while, but I’ll read all the responses when I return. I guess I would say that, if you’re not Jewish to begin with, converting to Judaism is definitely a mistake, Pascal’s wager-wise, which is what prompted this whole thread. Of course, if you’re already Jewish and can’t escape, I suppose you should try and follow all the extra responsibilities, just in case God is Jewish and the folks who have posited a Jewish afterlife are right? OK, I look forward to reading more in this thread later. Thanks to everyone for their patience with my simplistic understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/26 "2022-07-25T21:12:35Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Could you have a cheeseburger if the meat and the cheese came from different species? My very vague recollection is something about not seething the calf in the milk of the mother. The same prohibition - “You shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk” - appears 3 times in the Torah: Exodus 34:26; Exodus 23:19, Deuteronomy 14:21. (Note that “kid” in this context refers to a young domesticated animal, not necessarily a goat.) The triple repetition is understood by tradition to identify three separate prohibitions: cooking (even if one doesn’t eat it), eating (even if one didn’t do the cooking), and benefitting (such as buying and selling the fait accompli). This does apply even if the milk and meat are not from mother and child, and even if they’re from different species. It does not apply if the meat is poultry. though the rabbis later banned this to prevent accidentally confusing the different meats. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/27 "2022-07-25T21:14:50Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > though the rabbis later banned this to prevent accidentally confusing the different meats. This is, as I understand it, what’s called “building a fence around the Torah”: You follow a stricter requirement than necessary, so you don’t accidentally violate the real requirement. Meanwhile, fish is considered sufficiently different from mammal meat as to not cause confusion, and so lox with cream cheese is allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/28 "2022-07-25T21:19:22Z")
No, the categories are just “meat” and “dairy”, so you can’t have beef with sheep’s milk cheese or anything like that. You are correct that the actual Biblical commandment is just to “not boil a kid in the milk of its mother”, which seems kind of bizarrely specific and likely alludes to some particular ritual of the Canaanite pagans the Jews were trying to displace. Jewish law is often stricter than the the actual Biblical text would call for, but the extension of this to “no meat and dairy at the same meal, ever” is an extreme example. Edited to add: wow, double ninja’ed! ---
**Author:** ![Jingleheimer-Schmidt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Jingleheimer-Schmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jingleheimer-Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/29 "2022-07-25T21:40:38Z")
Following is the traditional Jewish prayer said at funerals (and commemorations): > Merciful God who dwells above, provide a sure rest on the wings of the Divine Presence, amongst the holy and pure who shine as brightly as the sky, to the soul of (Hebrew name of deceased) daughter of (Hebrew name of her father), who has gone on to her eternity. For the sake of the charity which they gave to commemorate her soul, let her rest be in the Garden of Eden. Hence, the Merciful One will shade her forever with his wings, and will bind her in the bundle of life. The LORD is her heritage, and she shall rest peacefully on her bed. So let us say, Amen. [El Malei Rachamim - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Malei_Rachamim) ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/30 "2022-07-25T22:09:22Z")
That is fascinating, and thank you very much for answering my question. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/31 "2022-07-25T22:09:37Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Depends on who you ask. It is a truth universally acknowledged that other peoples’ opinions about your religious status are not binding. (Well, force has been used to bind those opinions down damn tight, but that’s not relevant here.) You can find Jews who believe almost anything (remember Jews for Jesus?) but the talk of being good for the afterlife is something that I would consider extremely rare. In my personal experience it literally never came up. Until I read these threads, I would said that almost definitionally, that’s the Christian revision of Judiasm. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/32 "2022-07-25T22:09:55Z")
Speaking for myself, when you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s my understanding of Jewish thought. If there’s an afterlife, it’s unknowable but likely not personal. > can’t escape This just seems weird to me. Jews in general don’t approach being Jewish as a religious burden or something to escape. Pascal’s wager isn’t a way I’ve ever heard Jews talk about being Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/33 "2022-07-25T22:19:52Z")
Can’t escape? I realize a Jew can’t renounce his or her religion, assuming the mother is Jewish, but what if they actively convert to some other religion, say Catholicism? Are they then Catholic or Jewish, or somehow both? I know a family where the mother is Catholic, and the Father is Jewish. To get married by a priest and a rabbi, the father had to agree to raise the children Catholic, and they were baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church. The kids consider themselves half Catholic and half Jewish, but I don’t think that’s a thing. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/34 "2022-07-25T22:20:02Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Jews in general don’t approach being Jewish as a religious burden or something to escape. Pascal’s wager isn’t a way I’ve ever heard Jews talk about being Jewish. Traditionally, a prospective convert is turned away three times. Also traditionally, converts are highly respected because they had no obligation to take on the burden of the law. It’s not ‘something to escape,’ but it’s absolutely a heavy obligation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/35 "2022-07-25T22:21:25Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > The kids consider themselves half Catholic and half Jewish, but I don’t think that’s a thing. Is it? This circles back around to Judaism as a religion vs Judaism as a culture and ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/36 "2022-07-25T22:25:15Z")
So one can be culturally/ethnically Jewish and religiously Catholic simultaneously? Does the opposite also apply? Can someone be culturally/ethnically Catholic and religiously Jewish? Those two things seem incompatible to me. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/37 "2022-07-25T22:26:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You can find Jews who believe almost anything (remember Jews for Jesus?) Have you ever read a short story by Norman Spinrad called The Holy War on 34th Street? The Jews for Jesus make at least a brief appearance, as do the Lubevitches, Scientologists, and Hare Krishas. Goodreads actually has [the whole thing here](https://tinyurl.com/2bftg7b5), and it is darn near crying on the floor from laughter funny. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/38 "2022-07-25T22:32:28Z")
If I tell you of a fellow named Brendan O’Reilly, and tell you that his first language was Irish, and his favorite song is “O Danny Boy”, and that his favorite food was boxty, just like his grandmother used to make, would you have any difficulty in telling me his ethnicity? And if I tell you of a fellow named David Cohen, and tell you that his first language was Yiddish, and his favorite song is “Hava Negila”, and his favorite food is gefilte fish, just like his grandmother used to make, would you have any difficulty in telling me his ethnicity? And would your assessments of ethnicity change at all, if I told you that every weekend, Brendan faithfully went to services at Beth Shalom, and David attended Mass at St. Mary’s? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/39 "2022-07-25T22:36:31Z")
I also know kids who were raised to consider themselves half Jewish and half Catholic (aka “Cashews”). Neither of those religions actually considers that to be theologically possible. From a Jewish POV, there is no exit ramp from Judaism. Converting to some other religion doesn’t make you a non-Jew, it just makes you a heretical one. From a Catholic POV, of course, conversion renders all your previous sinful beliefs and practices null and void. You would still be ethnically Jewish, but Catholicism regards ethnicity and religious doctrine as completely unrelated things. There are certainly people who are raised in Jewish communities and then convert to other religions, so they could be “culturally Jewish” while identifying as a member of some other religion. I’ve never actually heard anyone claim that, though; it’s common for people to identify as “culturally Jewish”, but in my experience those people are secularists or atheists, not people who have actively embraced some other religion. I guess it could work the other way, too; there are certainly people who grow up in other religions and convert to Judaism, so the “Culturally Catholic, but Religiously Jewish” formulation might make a certain amount of sense. But I’ve never heard anyone actually use it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/40 "2022-07-25T22:52:42Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > I realize a Jew can’t renounce his or her religion, assuming the mother is Jewish, but what if they actively convert to some other religion, say Catholicism? While still working as a carpenter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545.md?page=3)