# Judaism rewards and punishments **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545 "2022-07-25T19:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/81 "2022-07-26T13:18:16Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Agreed that there’s no _explicit_ mention of an afterlife of torment, but to those familiar with the references, there’s a great deal of _implicit_ mention. We have no idea what Spinoza did to warrant the level of vitriol in his excommunication, but I’ve never been able to read it as much more than excessively dramatic pearl-clutching. I find it hard to imagine, given the hate that drips from the page, they would’ve been shy about explicitly damning him to hell if they thought it was on the table. As a sidebar (relevant to this topic, I think): where would a late medieval Jewish community have derived the authority - even in its own mind - to declare anybody “expelled from the people of Israel” except as an allegory for being booted from the community itself? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/82 "2022-07-26T13:27:41Z")
[Spinoza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza) died 21 years later, most likely from inhaling fine glass dust from his occupation as a lens grinder. Not exactly Old Testament level punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/83 "2022-07-26T13:43:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I find it hard to imagine, given the hate that drips from the page, they would’ve been shy about explicitly damning him to hell if they thought it was on the table. I guess I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. They didn’t use the words that you might have expected, but in the context of the times, what they wrote DID damn him to hell. For more info, try [the Wikipedia article on it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza#Expulsion_from_the_Jewish_community). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/84 "2022-07-26T15:54:12Z")
No mention of Paradise? Judaism is full of mythology about this destination after death. The details are rarely mentioned though, just a generic belief that after death people will dwell in Paradise, and that sounds pretty good right? Here’s a bit in a wiki about [Heaven in Judaism.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Judaism#Legends) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/85 "2022-07-26T16:17:35Z")
That same wiki article says > It is important to note the lack of consensus on the contents, existence, or substance of what is known in [English](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) as “[heaven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven)” in [Judaism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism). Many hold references to what would be called “heaven” as [allegorical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory), detailing a story or proposition rather than concrete conclusion or absolute. As such, Jewish thought holds equal or greater value towards other [eschatologies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology) such as [reincarnation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Judaism#cite_note-2)[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Judaism#cite_note-3)[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Judaism#cite_note-4) and more. [Rabbinic Judaism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_Judaism) generally holds greater value on doing mitzvot during life, rather than focusing on that which comes after, when one cannot do [mitzvot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitzvah). Nevertheless, Judaism has many opinions on what happens in the afterlife, and the existence of a “heaven” can be one of them, however debated as to its contents or manifest Speaking as someone who was raised Jewish, and has lots of Jewish friends representing a fairly wide swath of Jewish belief, I’ve never heard anyone talk about “paradise” after death, or heaven for that matter. My rabbi said, “we don’t know”. Orthodox friends sometimes talk about reincarnation after the coming of the messiah. There are no doubt some Jews who believe in some sort of heaven, but I’m going to say they are a tiny minority. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/86 "2022-07-26T16:45:57Z")
I hope that the following will clarify things, but there’s a good chance that it just make it murkier. Everything that I’ve learned about Judaism points to God being extremely fair, giving everyone exactly what they deserve. Granted that sources for this are hard to find, but in my opinion it is a logical conclusion if one accepts the starting point that God is good. Thus, there MUST be something more than this life, if only to resolve the inequity of why bad things happen to good people and vice versa. However, the _nature_ of this after-stuff is impossible to know or describe. I really think that Spock explained it best in Star Trek 4, after he had been brought back to life: > McCOY: Come on Spock, it’s me, McCoy! You really _have_ gone where no man has gone before. Can’t you tell me what it felt like? > SPOCK: It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference. The best we can hope for is some kind of allegory or metaphor. And, being mere humans, each writer or speaker will come up with their own attempt at describing the impossible. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/87 "2022-07-26T16:49:50Z")
My grandmother and her generation talked about this. I never heard any details about it. I think there was a reference to Paradise in some Isaac Bashevis Singer tales, maybe something else. That’s about it for my experience, can’t say how widespread it might be known or considered by modern Jews. Jewish mythology must be a tough issue for Rabbis to deal with, they know it exists, but would avoid appearing to consider it at the same level as those matters with a biblical source. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/88 "2022-07-26T16:54:40Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Jewish mythology must be a tough issue for Rabbis to deal with, they know it exists, but would avoid appearing to consider it at the same level as those matters with a biblical source. I honestly don’t know what you’re referring to when you say “Jewish mythology.” The body of work we call [midrashim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash) is highly regarded, and there’s no particular difficulty with it. Otherwise I can’t think of anything that could be reasonably called ‘Jewish mythology’ that’s distinct from the oral and written traditions we already extensively study and comment on. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/89 "2022-07-26T16:56:23Z")
It should also be noted that the concept of eternal damnation is not part of Jewish doctrine, although there is the idea that the souls of the extremely wicked will be obliterated after death. From what I’ve read the general teaching is there is at most 12 months of purgatory, but with a weekly respite on the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/90 "2022-07-26T17:09:09Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Everything that I’ve learned about Judaism points to God being extremely fair, giving everyone exactly what they deserve. Granted that sources for this are hard to find, but in my opinion it is a logical conclusion if one accepts the starting point that God is good. I’m not criticizing your faith or anything, but your posts in this thread are a real outlier compared to the rest. From your posting history, I had always assumed you were Christian of some sort, and your posts here have a certain Christian tinge to them. Just commenting. I find it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/91 "2022-07-26T17:10:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Otherwise I can’t think of anything that could be reasonably called ‘Jewish mythology’ that’s distinct from the oral and written traditions we already extensively study and comment on. I can’t say, I’m as far from a religious scholar as can be. I just haven’t heard rabbis elevating stories like Paradise and Adam’s first wife Lilith to the same level as biblical stories. I’m not sure why you think there is no Jewish mythology, the link I used speaks of ‘legends’ if you think there’s some important distinction there. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/92 "2022-07-26T17:19:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not sure why you think there is no Jewish mythology, the link I used speaks of ‘legends’ if you think there’s some important distinction there. The distinction would be that mythologies are core cultural touchstones. When you say “Jewish mythology must be a tough issue for rabbis to deal with,” you’re suggesting that there’s an important body of work that they’re ignoring for the sake of enforcing religious coherence or elevating one set of traditions over another. That’s simply not the case. Certainly, over many thousands of years of tradition, there have been stories about everything under the sun. But there’s nothing to ‘deal with’ in the way you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/93 "2022-07-26T17:27:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Certainly, over many thousands of years of tradition, there have been stories about everything under the sun. But there’s nothing to ‘deal with’ in the way you suggest. Ok, thanks for fighting my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/94 "2022-07-26T17:37:51Z")
The point was, based on a few pieces of information, you were able to identify Brendan’s ethnicity (which, yes, would presumably be Irish). I also gave you the equivalent pieces of information for David. If that’s enough information to identify ethnicity, then what’s David’s ethnicity? Is there any answer possible other than “Jewish”? Even if David isn’t religiously Jewish, his ethnicity is still Jewish. It’s both a religion and an ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/95 "2022-07-26T17:52:27Z")
FWIW, Jesus talked about an afterlife in his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31) – and if his audience said “What the hell are you talking about?” the evangelist didn’t record it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/96 "2022-07-26T17:54:23Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > However, in my particular case, I reached a point in my teenage years when I debated with myself about what direction I wanted my life to take. For example, my parents kept a kosher home, but we ate non-kosher at restaurants; we ate non-kosher at restaurants, but only the rest of the year and not on Passover. These halfway measures were unacceptable to me, and I tried to figure out a basis for turning my life in one direction or another. And it seemed to me that trying harder to follow Judaism was a relatively easy solution, especially when compared to the possible rewards. (And much later, I learned how similar that was to Pascal’s Wager.) I still don’t understand how this has anything to do with Pascal’s Wager. The point of that is that the potential penalty for believing incorrectly is so much less than that of not believing incorrectly (eternal damnation) that believing was the only rational choice. Avoidance of bad things happening in this life doesn’t cut it, since even in the Bible bad kings die in bed at a ripe old age and their virtuous sons die horribly in battle still young. Most importantly, we’d be immoral if we thought that lack of belief led to a horrible conclusion. (Not being reincarnated doesn’t count as horrible.) Lack of evangelism is pretty universal. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/97 "2022-07-26T18:02:00Z")
Remember that from anything other than a Christian believer perspective the stories of the Gospels were written quite a bit after the historical figure lived and reflect perspectives not present in the people of Christ’s actual time and place. Luke is in this perspective not a reliable narrator. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/98 "2022-07-26T18:07:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > > > Otherwise I can’t think of anything that could be reasonably called ‘Jewish mythology’ that’s distinct from the oral and written traditions we already extensively study and comment on. > > I can’t say, I’m as far from a religious scholar as can be. I just haven’t heard rabbis elevating stories like Paradise and Adam’s first wife Lilith to the same level as biblical stories. I’m not sure why you think there is no Jewish mythology, the link I used speaks of ‘legends’ if you think there’s some important distinction there. Rabbis tell stories all the time. I’ve heard stories about a very holy man ascending a ladder to heaven (which was framed as “where God lives”, not as “where dead people go”) but the rungs were built by the good acts of his congregation. I’ve heard stories of the writers of the Talmud all hanging out together in the afterlife, happily arguing fine points of Torah around a big table. I’ve heard stories of golems. I’ve heard stories that add extra-biblical details to the sacrifice of Isaac, or other important vignettes. I’ve heard any number of stories set in “the real world” which are obviously meant metaphorically, and not literally, too. I don’t think there’s any problem with rabbis telling stories or sharing folk tales. I just think that Jewish story tellers tend to be interested in different themes than Christian story tellers, with “what happens after death” being a theme that’s just MUCH more important to Christians than to Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/99 "2022-07-26T18:10:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I still don’t understand how this has anything to do with Pascal’s Wager. Pascal was a Christian. Please forgive the oversimplification, but (in my experience) Christians tend to put a lot of emphasis on proper/improper _beliefs_, while Jews tend to put a lot of emphasis on proper/improper _actions_. Now reread what you wrote, but substitute “acting” for “believing”, and I hope you’ll see that I chose to do the Jewish things in order to avoid punishment and get reward. > [@Voyager](#): > > Avoidance of bad things happening in **this life** doesn’t cut it, since even in the Bible bad kings die in bed at a ripe old age and their virtuous sons die horribly in battle still young. Emphasis was mine. Isn’t Pascal’s wager about the **next** life? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what Pascal’s wager was all about? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545/100 "2022-07-26T18:19:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t think there’s any problem with rabbis telling stories or sharing folk tales. There’s also, to my read at least, a significant difference between stories and folk tales and parables, and _myths_. Myths imply the story (be of fiction or fact) is key to how the culture perceived itself. The story of Moses and Exodus from bondage is a key myth of Jewish culture for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judaism-rewards-and-punishments/968545.md?page=6)