# Judas - As part of the Twelve **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962 "2006-06-01T01:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jebus\_H.Christ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Jebus\_H.Christ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jebus_H.Christ)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/1 "2006-06-01T01:23:56Z")
What is Judas’ part in the twelve? In mainstream Christianity is he considered to sit in on a throne in Heaven as a part of the Twelve (see Matt. 19:28, Luke 22:30)? In Acts (1:21 - 26) Judas is replaced by Matthias for Judas’ apostolic ministry, but that does that mean that Judas is not a part of the Twelve that Jesus directly and expressly said would rule with him in Heaven (Matt. 19:28, Luke 22:30)? Is Matthias taking Judas’ role as one of the Twelve (including all things promised th=o the Twelve beofre he joined) or only taking over Judas’ apostolic ministry? Act and 1 Corinthians do have references to the Twelve doing doing things after Judas is dead. But are these the same Twelve that Jesus picked or are they only the current twelve apolostic ministers? Where would the eleven left get the power to say that Judas is not part of the Twelve (that Jesus named) to rule in Heaven when Jesus named Judas himself? When Jesus spoke to Judas (and the other eleven) and said they would rule with him in heaven didn’t Jesus already know that Judas would betray him? Matthew 10:2-4 > [@](#): > > These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. Matthew 19:28 > [@](#): > > Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:30 > [@](#): > > so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Acts 6:1-2 > [@](#): > > In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 1 Corinthians 15:4-5 > [@](#): > > that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. Matthew 27:1-5 > [@](#): > > 1Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people came to the decision to put Jesus to death. 2They bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate, the governor. > > 3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4"I have sinned," he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” > “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” > > 5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. Acts 1:18 > [@](#): > > (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Acts 1:21-26 > [@](#): > > 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." > > 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/2 "2006-06-01T01:51:18Z")
[jesus christ superstar] JUDAS: Listen Jesus I don’t like what I see All I ask is that you listen to me And remember I’ve been your right hand man all along You have set them all on fire They think they’ve found the new Messiah And they’ll hurt you when they find they’re wrong [/jcc] ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/3 "2006-06-01T03:04:12Z")
Sheesh, Jebus – is this turning into Christianity 101? 😃 Judas is listed as one of the original Twelve in all four standard listings (which have some variation amongst the other names. By his betrayal of Jesus and his subsequent suicide, he is deemed by the traditional understanding of salvation theology to have forfeited any claim to Christ’s Atonement, much less to be part of the Apostles. Hence, Matthias was chosen to fill out the number to twelve again. (Note that this was a one-shot event, to bring the number back up to the Twelve which Jesus had set; when James bar Zebedee was beheaded, he was not replaced.) Most Christians either hold to the traditional understanding or entrust any judgment of Judas to God’s mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/4 "2006-06-01T03:19:03Z")
Dude…it’s your interpretation. It’s not specifically in the Bible, a notoriously self-contradictory text anyway, so you have to come to your own conclusion. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/5 "2006-06-01T19:38:57Z")
I’ve heard tell of several interesting theories that attempt to reclaim Judas, saying that he’s essential to Jesus’s sacrifice, resurrection, and subsequent redemption of humanity. If there’s no Judas, there’s no betrayal, and such, so crucifixion. Some go so far as to say that Judas should be revered, not reviled, for his role. Rather like the “Snape is good” theories for Harry Potter, some of these theories speculate that Judas didn’t want to betray Jesus but was persuaded to by Jesus himself. Some have him fully cognizant of what his role meant, both good (meaning he facilitated the whole redemption) and bad (that he’d be hated and, hey, that he’s sending a good friend to death). I’m not sure how his suicide figures in with these theories, but they are interesting. I haven’t read up on them in any books or such, but perhaps some other Doper will come along who has. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/6 "2006-06-01T20:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=Snickers] I’ve heard tell of several interesting theories that attempt to reclaim Judas, saying that he’s essential to Jesus’s sacrifice, resurrection, and subsequent redemption of humanity. [/QUOTE] > **[Gospel of Judas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_judas)** > > Judean / Israelite Christian Gnosticism Persian Gnosticism Chinese Gnosticism ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/7 "2006-06-02T12:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] > **[Gospel of Judas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_judas)** > > Judean / Israelite Christian Gnosticism Persian Gnosticism Chinese Gnosticism [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’ve heard of Gnosticism too. OTOH Jesus himself is on record as saying that the betrayal of the Son of Man was necessary, but as for him who does the betraying, better for him that he had never been born. Judas wasn’t _setting out_ to do God’s work in betraying Jesus, and it’s the intention that counts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-as-part-of-the-twelve/358962/8 "2006-06-02T21:53:11Z")
You might find these lyrics of interest – “Stand Up For Judas” by Leon Rosselson: [http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/s/standupf.html](http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/s/standupf.html)