# Judas done the right thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983 "2004-03-01T22:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![saluki\_fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@saluki\_fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saluki_fan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/1 "2004-03-01T22:40:52Z")
It seems to me that when times get rough or they are searching for some inspiration they always seem to say “you can’t change your future.” If that person, or religion, believed that philosophy; wouldn’t that mean that Judas did exactly what he was supposed to do. I mean even Jesus himself says he was sent to earth to atone for our sins, right? So if everybody has a predetermined destiny by god, whether it be priest, lawyer, doctor, etc, wouldn’t that mean Judas did the right thing. I can go on more, but I think everybody sees where this is going. Here’s another noodle scratcher for you: If Judas did fulfill his destiny, this making Jesus words true, then would he be resting in Heaven or Hell? ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/2 "2004-03-01T23:01:09Z")
If one believes in predestination and a _just_ god, it seems to follow that Judas would be in Heaven, since he had no choice and in fact his actions were necessary for Jesus to carry out his mission. He was essentially a vessel for god’s work. Mind you, I don’t believe any of it anyway, but it seems like that’s how it would be the story were all true. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/3 "2004-03-01T23:05:07Z")
This is an interesting topic, and one I’ve played around with myself a bit, to the point of writing an essay from the point of view of Judas. (It appeared in my church’s newsletter the day I left the country for a week!;)) Judas’ betrayal of Christ was necessary for Christianity to come about. I’m also certain, based on my reading of the Gospels, that Jesus knew what Judas would do. My own theory is that Judas was trying to force Christ’s hand, as it were and get Him to act in what Judas thought was a Messiah-like fashion which probably included performing major, showy miracles and generally kicking Roman butt. Instead, Christ allowed Himself to be arrested and shamed. While it’s easy to portray Judas as a villain, without him, there would be story to tell, for without Christ’s death, there is no resurrection. Without Good Friday, there is no Easter, just another itinerrant rabbi. As to whether Judas is in heaven or hell, remember, as far as I’m concerned Christ knew what he would do and what would result. While one could argue that Judas followed his own desires rather than God’s, or at least what Christ may have given the impression He desired, ultimately, through Judas’ actions, God’s will was done. In short, my vote’s for heaven. I’m interested in reading other people’s responses. CJ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/4 "2004-03-01T23:06:38Z")
Of course Judas did the right thing – not by willy-nilly serving Jesus’ agenda, **but by betraying him.** As Leon Rosselson put it in his classic “Stand Up for Judas”: The Romans were the masters when Jesus walked the land In Judea and in Galilee they ruled with an iron hand And the poor were sick with hunger and the rich were clothed in splendour And the rebels whipped and crucified hung rotting as a warning And Jesus knew the answer Said, Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, said, Love your enemies But Judas was a Zealot and he wanted to be free Resist, he said, The Romans’ tyranny Chorus: So stand up, stand up for Judas and the cause that Judas served It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word Jesus was a conjuror, miracles were his game And he fed the hungry thousands and they glorified his name He cured the lame and the lepers, he calmed the wind and the weather And the wretched flocked to touch him so their troubles would be taken And Jesus knew the answer All you who labour, all you who suffer only believe in me But Judas sought a world where no one starved or begged for bread The poor are always with us, Jesus said (Chorus) Now Jesus brought division where none had been before Not the slaves against their masters but the poor against the poor Set son to rise up against father, and brother to fight against brother For he that is not with me is against me, was his teaching Said Jesus, I am the answer You unbelievers shall burn forever, shall die in your sins Not sheep and goats, said Judas, But together we may dare Shake off the chains of misery we share (Chorus) Jesus stood upon the mountain with a distance in his eyes I am the way, the life, he cried, The light that never dies So renounce all earthly treasures and pray to your heavenly father And he pacified the hopeless with the hope of life eternal Said Jesus, I am the answer And you who hunger only remember your reward’s in Heaven So Jesus preached the other world but Judas wanted this And he betrayed his master with a kiss (Chorus) By sword and gun and crucifix Christ’s gospel has been spread And 2.000 cruel years have shown the way that Jesus led The heretics burned and tortured, and the butchering, bloody crusaders The bombs and rockets sanctified that rain down death from heaven They followed Jesus, they knew the answer All non-believers must be believers or else be broken So put no trust in Saviours, Judas said, For everyone Must be to his or her own self - a sun (Chorus) **STAND UP FOR JUDAS!** ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/5 "2004-03-02T01:16:12Z")
I rather think that Jesus would have been arrested by the Romans, or killed somehow or other, without Judas’ help sooner or later. I do not believe that Judas himself was necessary to Christianity. To me, it is not a question of eventual consequences–although it turned out in the end that Judas’ betrayal led Christ to the sacrifice he had to make, Judas didn’t know that AFAIK. He wasn’t doing it for love of the world and because he knew that it had to be done; he betrayed his friend and rabbi for money. Why exactly I don’t know, but it doesn’t seem to me that it was for benevolent reasons. Then again, it isn’t my job to decide these things (thank goodness)–but I have a hard time thinking of Judas as a reluctant hero. God, it seems, can turn many sins to eventual good. That does not mean that the sins were a good idea in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/6 "2004-03-02T01:25:33Z")
Juduas, by some accounts, committed suicide, so that’s straight to hell for him no matter what, by many traditions. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/7 "2004-03-02T02:59:30Z")
> [@Matthew 18:7 KJV](#): > > Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! post minimum ho! ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/8 "2004-03-02T05:40:04Z")
The consideration of whether Judas was in some way a more despicable sinner than say, Peter, or I, involves the assumption that one of us is less of a sinner than the other. I find that logic to be entirely based on human evaluation of the souls of other humans. I think Peter sinned. I think that he knew it, too. I know that I have sinned, and I find it likely that Judas sinned as well. But you see, sin is not the point of the story. Forgiveness, and redemption, and salvation by the Grace of God are the point of the story. Please be assured that I find betrayal to be undesirable behavior from a human perspective, and I would have been angry at Judas, had I been among the disciples. But after we all abandoned our Savior to the derision and murder of the mob, we stopped having the right to judge Judas. Or anyone else. May I put down my stone, please? Tris ---
**Author:** ![FuzzyWuzzy06](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/977dab/32.png) [@FuzzyWuzzy06](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuzzyWuzzy06)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/9 "2004-03-02T05:53:24Z")
This subject is quite interesting… There is much debate about whether or not Judas actually “betrayed” Jesus. There is some speculation that Jesus chose Judas to hand him over. Judas was said to be one of Jesus’s favorite, or most trusted, or loved… one of those… Im not sure what word the gospels use. He was also the “treasurer” of the group, and back in those times a fee was always paid for such a transaction… hence another reason we Judas would be the one handing Jesus over. Also, about his suicide… there is speculation that it was not out of guilt, but out of Judas’s want to recieve the same fate as Jesus… kinda like dieing with/ for your leader. This whole issue was discussed on the History Channel during Christmas… any one else see it? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/10 "2004-03-02T05:55:58Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > My own theory is that Judas was trying to force Christ’s hand, as it were and get Him to act in what Judas thought was a Messiah-like fashion which probably included performing major, showy miracles and generally kicking Roman butt. So basically, he was trying to accomplish God’s work by “steadying the ark”. In the old days, God struck people dead on the spot for that kind of infraction. Not exactly a shining endorsement. > [@](#): > > While it’s easy to portray Judas as a villain, without him, there would be story to tell Baloney. Jesus would have been slain with or without Judas. The scriptural evidence is that Jesus condemned Judas’ action (Matt 26:24, Mark 14:21, Luke 22:22) and that Judas was clearly convicted of conscience (Matt 27:4). The straight reading of the text is that Judas was **not** doing God’s will. It requires a great deal of rhetoric to arrive at your conclusion which is the opposite of what scripture says. I’m willing to give Judas the benefit of the doubt (who knows his mental state when he betrayed Jesus–and it’s not my place to condemn him), but it takes tremendous leaps of logic to conclude that he’s in Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/11 "2004-03-02T06:19:56Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > I’m willing to give Judas the benefit of the doubt (who knows his mental state when he betrayed Jesus–and it’s not my place to condemn him), but it takes tremendous leaps of logic to conclude that he’s in Heaven. I don’t thnk a leap of logic would do it. It would take a miracle. Tris ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/12 "2004-03-02T08:18:02Z")
Let me preface this by saying I neither believe in God nor the resurrection story. But I’ve looked at enough of these debates that I think I can play devil’s advocate, so to speak, and explain why Judas’ actions were wrong. It’s my understanding that Christians believe both that humans have free will, AND that God knows all, past, present, and future. IMO, that’s a contradiction, but Christians don’t believe it is. If I understand the belief correctly, God exists transcendent of time, and while people do have free will, God also knows the outcome of their choices. Now Jesus, as God incarnate, also knew the future, and knew what Judas would do. And in Jesus’s/God’s mind, Judas did what he was _supposed_ to do. But in _Judas’s_ mind, he still betrayed Jesus. If God knows all, then in a sense, one could say Hitler did what he was “supposed” to do; surely Hitler is not in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/13 "2004-03-02T09:13:37Z")
I don’t believe in the ressurection story as told, but I believe in God. In the Christian doctrine, if Hitler or Judas repented right before they died, they’re saved. There’s a verse in the bible I can’t find right now, but it basically says that no sin is worse than another. There’s a parable about some workers that show up late and get paid the same. They’re all the same, as long as they repent. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/14 "2004-03-02T10:54:15Z")
Like I said, my opinions are strictly mine, and generally somewhat out there. On the other hand, when I’ve mounted up on my white horse, charging off to do battle in God’s name, absolutely convinced that I am _Right_ and God is on my side, my take on Judas reminds of one sobering thing. Judas also believed that. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/15 "2004-03-02T11:06:06Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > It’s my understanding that Christians believe both that humans have free will, AND that God knows all, past, present, and future. IMO, that’s a contradiction, but Christians don’t believe it is. You’re painting with entiely too broad abrush here - you can’t assume all Christians take these positions. Some Christians emphasise free will, but others (e.g. - Calvinists) are predestinarians. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/16 "2004-03-02T18:23:30Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > when I’ve mounted up on my white horse, charging off to do battle in God’s name, absolutely convinced that I am _Right_ and God is on my side, my take on Judas reminds of one sobering thing. Judas also believed that. No, that’s not right. There’s no evidence to show that Judas believed that. That’s entirely your speculation. Judas _may_ have believed that. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/17 "2004-03-02T19:05:28Z")
It is told that at the the Last Supper Jesus claimed to know that one of his followers would betray him. So the question is: why didn’t he stop him to do it. Which brings us to a few possibilities 1. He heard a rumour about it but didn’t know who it would be. He decided to bring it in the open to see if someone else knew about it or to see if the one who was planning to do it would expose himself. 2. He knew who it was but didn’t stop him. If you claim that Jesus = God, then he must have known that it was going to happen, who it was and what this treason would to do that man and that it would lead him to commit suicide. Then you must come to the conclusion that God deliberately made Judas betray God and next commit suicide = become excluded from every opportunity to enter heaven and sentenced to be despized by all further generations of Christians until the end of time. I don’t find that a reasoning logical when you teach and believe that God is the summum of love, compassion and mercy. How do Christians explain that God deliberately does something like that to a follower of God? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/18 "2004-03-02T19:47:56Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > You’re painting with entiely too broad abrush here - you can’t assume all Christians take these positions. Some Christians emphasise free will, but others (e.g. - Calvinists) are predestinarians. You sure about that? [Is Calvinism Inconsistent with Free Will?](http://graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=128) > [@](#): > > God has ordained that human beings shall keep their liberty under His sovereignty. He has made no attempt to give us a formal explanation of these things, and our limited human knowledge is not able fully to solve the problem. Since the Scripture writers did not hesitate to affirm the absolute sway of God over the thoughts and intents of the heart, they felt no embarrassment in including the acts of free agents within His all-embracing plan. That the makers of the Westminster Confession recognized the freedom of man is plain; for immediately after declaring that “God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass,” they added, “Yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/19 "2004-03-03T00:26:44Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > How do Christians explain that God deliberately does something like that to a follower of God? God will never abrogate agency (free will) to accomplish His goals. Hence, Jesus allowed Judas to make his choice, but made sure that he knew [there would be serious consequences](http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/26/24#24). Indeed, were God to remove the most important choice we have (to choose God or to choose evil), free will would be a farce. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/20 "2004-03-03T02:40:45Z")
I humbly beg to offer a [link to a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=139308) regarding Judas I started some time ago with similar themes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983.md?page=2)