# Judas done the right thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983 "2004-03-01T22:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/21 "2004-03-03T06:40:55Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Indeed, were God to remove the most important choice we have (to choose God or to choose evil), free will would be a farce. We do not have a choice between God and evil. We have a choice between God and good. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/22 "2004-03-03T11:30:37Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > God will never abrogate agency (free will) to accomplish His goals. Hence, Jesus allowed Judas to make his choice, but made sure that he knew [there would be serious consequences](http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/26/24#24). Never? Seems like there are many instances in which God obviously influences someones character in the Bible to change their minds. > [@](#): > > Indeed, were God to remove the most important choice we have (to choose God or to choose evil), free will would be a farce. I’ve never seen exactly how any of this follows. You are such a creature of such a character that chooses certain things. Many things outside of your control can alter this character over time so that your choices will be different, but nobody cries “violation of free will!” there. So why would God changing your character to be nicer violate your free will in any way? You are still free to choose what it is in your character to choose. You’d just have a different and better character all of a sudden. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/23 "2004-03-03T11:55:47Z")
Can we really believe there is a Hell? This is a place where lost souls are tormented for Eternity. Can we believe that Jesus, the quintessence of Love, would condemn us to Hell forever? I find this very hard to believe. Once upon a time in confession, I asked a priest if those in Heaven live in utter bliss. He gave an unequivocal 'Yes." Well then," I asked, “how do you explain Lucifer.” It stumped him, as it does me. I mean if we believe that Lucifer became so jaded, he challenged God to a rasslin’ match, lost and was flung into hell, whats in store for those of us who make it to heaven? Will some of us tire of all that goody-two-shoes stuff and request a transfer? Not likely. I think (or is it ‘hope’?) that Hell is something the Book holds over us to keep us somewhat on the right path. Another priest (in confession again) told me that at the time of one’s death, Jesus visits each and every one of us and offers a choice - Him or Satan, heaven or hell. Stupefied, I replied “No one would choose Satan, so that would mean everyone - even a Hitler - goes to heaven, right?” He agreed. Ah, but this turns out to be herestical as I found out later. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/24 "2004-03-03T12:30:37Z")
> [@saluki\_fan](#): > > It seems to me that when times get rough or they are searching for some inspiration they always seem to say “you can’t change your future.” I’ve never heard that. > [@](#): > > I mean even Jesus himself says he was sent to earth to atone for our sins, right? The idea that Jesus died for our sins is NOT in the Gospels; this idea comes from Paul. So no, Jesus never said so. Find a quote if you can. > [@](#): > > So if everybody has a predetermined destiny by god, whether it be priest, lawyer, doctor, etc, wouldn’t that mean Judas did the right thing. No, but it could mean that he was predetermined to do the wrong thing. > [@](#): > > I can go on more, but I think everybody sees where this is going. Here’s another noodle scratcher for you: If Judas did fulfill his destiny, this making Jesus words true, then would he be resting in Heaven or Hell? One can rest in Hell? I feel relieved. But no: if you buy the premises of the versions of Xianity that support predestination and notions of eternal Hell, then I doubt that you’d be debating whether Judas was “right” or in Hell or not. Besides, there is still the question of whether Jesus’ life was predestined to happen exactly as it did or not… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/25 "2004-03-03T13:13:00Z")
I’m not going to add much to the debate, but anecdotically, Judas fate has been my first issue with christianism when I was attending sunday school (that would be wednesday school in France, actually). I just couldn’t get why he was condemned for what he had done, since doing so was at the same time necessary and sort of “planned”. From this arose my first feeling that this god the priest was talking about was unjust. Since then, Judas has been sort of a hero of mine. ``` However, the priest told us that Judas was sent to hell not for having betrayed the Christ, but for having commited suicide. ``` ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/26 "2004-03-03T14:29:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m not going to add much to the debate, but anecdotically, Judas fate has been my first issue with christianism when I was attending sunday school (that would be wednesday school in France, actually). I just couldn’t get why he was condemned for what he had done, since doing so was at the same time necessary and sort of “planned”. From this arose my first feeling that this god the priest was talking about was unjust. Since then, Judas has been sort of a hero of mine. > > ``` > However, the priest told us that Judas was sent to hell not for having betrayed the Christ, but for having commited suicide. > > ``` What the priest (and all his colleagues) tend to dismiss, is that Jesus, just before he died, asked his Father to “…forgive them for they know not what they do.” Do you think Jesus was talking only about the Romans and those few Jews who called for His execution? That plea was for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/27 "2004-03-03T18:38:09Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The idea that Jesus died for our sins is NOT in the Gospels; this idea comes from Paul. So no, Jesus never said so. Find a quote if you can. You mean like [Matthew 26:28](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+26%3A28&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&ESV_version=yes&CEV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&WYC_version=yes&NIV=&language=english&orientation=linebyline)? > [@](#): > > For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/28 "2004-03-04T07:00:32Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > You mean like [Matthew 26:28](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+26%3A28&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&_version=yes&NLT_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&ESV_version=yes&CEV_version=yes&NKJV_version=yes&KJ21_version=yes&ASV_version=yes&WE_version=yes&YLT_version=yes&DARBY_version=yes&WYC_version=yes&NIV=&language=english&orientation=linebyline)? Fair enough–but this ideas is really weak in the Gospels, althought there IS much about Jesus ability to forgive sins. Go to Paul, however, and it gets much clearer: [http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+4:25&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+4:25&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)"He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. " [http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+15:3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+15:3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[1] : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures…" [http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+7:27&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on27Unlike](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+7:27&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on27Unlike) the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. Big theme in Paul; barely to be found in the Gospels. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983/29 "2004-03-05T01:00:08Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Fair enough–but this ideas is really weak in the Gospels My comment was in response to your claim: > [@](#): > > The idea that Jesus died for our sins is NOT in the Gospels; this idea comes from Paul. I showed a counterexample. So it _is_ in the Gospels. > [@](#): > > Big theme in Paul; barely to be found in the Gospels. This is a backpedal from above, right? Which is it, thematic of Paul or coming from Paul? A few more references to the Gospels: [Matthew 20:28](http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/20/28#28) “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and **to give his life a ransom for many**.” [Luke 22:19](http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/22/19#19) “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is **my body which is given for you** : this do in remembrance of me.” [John 6:51](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/6/51#51) “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, **which I will give for the life of the world**.” [John 10:15](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/10/15#15) “As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and **I lay down my life for the sheep**.” [John 12:31-33](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/12/31-33#31) “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, **if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me**. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” And though not in the Gospels, [Peter wrote of it](http://scriptures.lds.org/1_pet/1/18-19#18), and the imagery of Jesus as the Lamb of God (and the [paschal lamb](http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/12/) as a foreshadowing of Jesus’ role) redeeming us from sin is pervasive in [John’s writings](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/29#29), including [many](http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/7/14#14) [references](http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/12/11#11) in Revelation. Lastly, the prophecy of Isaiah (which Christians interpret as applying to Christ) is [particularly apt](http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/53/5#5) for this theme: “and with his stripes we are healed” – this was the scripture shown onscreen as the movie opened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-done-the-right-thing/231983.md?page=1)