# Judas, Sinner or Saint (Not a religious question but a philosophical issue) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2004, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664 "2004-03-11T07:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/21 "2004-03-13T05:56:07Z")
As the British folksinger Leon Rosselson put it in his classic “Stand Up for Judas”: > [@](#): > > The Romans were the masters when Jesus walked the land > In Judea and in Galilee they ruled with an iron hand > And the poor were sick with hunger and the rich were clothed in splendour > And the rebels whipped and crucified hung rotting as a warning > And Jesus knew the answer > Said, Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, said, Love your enemies > But Judas was a Zealot and he wanted to be free > Resist, he said, The Romans’ tyranny > > Chorus: > So stand up, stand up for Judas and the cause that Judas served > It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word > > Jesus was a conjuror, miracles were his game > And he fed the hungry thousands and they glorified his name > He cured the lame and the lepers, he calmed the wind and the weather > And the wretched flocked to touch him so their troubles would be taken > And Jesus knew the answer > All you who labour, all you who suffer only believe in me > But Judas sought a world where no one starved or begged for bread > The poor are always with us, Jesus said > > (Chorus) > > Now Jesus brought division where none had been before > Not the slaves against their masters but the poor against the poor > Set son to rise up against father, and brother to fight against brother > For he that is not with me is against me, was his teaching > Said Jesus, I am the answer > You unbelievers shall burn forever, shall die in your sins > Not sheep and goats, said Judas, But together we may dare > Shake off the chains of misery we share > > (Chorus) > > Jesus stood upon the mountain with a distance in his eyes > I am the way, the life, he cried, The light that never dies > So renounce all earthly treasures and pray to your heavenly father > And he pacified the hopeless with the hope of life eternal > Said Jesus, I am the answer > And you who hunger only remember your reward’s in Heaven > So Jesus preached the other world but Judas wanted this > And he betrayed his master with a kiss > > (Chorus) > > By sword and gun and crucifix Christ’s gospel has been spread > And 2.000 cruel years have shown the way that Jesus led > The heretics burned and tortured, and the butchering, bloody crusaders > The bombs and rockets sanctified that rain down death from heaven > They followed Jesus, they knew the answer > All non-believers must be believers or else be broken > So put no trust in Saviours, Judas said, For everyone > Must be to his or her own self - a sun > > (Chorus) Down Christ! **STAND UP FOR JUDAS!** ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/22 "2004-03-13T06:04:09Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I disagree with your reasoning and your argument. But I respect you as a person willing to discuss things whithout slinging insults. You’re more than welcome to disagree. I’d be interested, however, in knowing why. I’ve presented a fairly standard approach to the matter, complete with sources from opposite ends of the spectrum of mainstream academia–the rather liberal Jesus Seminar and the decidedly more conservative Raymond Brown. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/23 "2004-03-13T13:53:16Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > jimmmy: I seriously doubt you have any “ruminations” on this matter. That is unless you are a typeing cow… 😃 Geeze try to coin a word. How about Ponderings? Reflections? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/24 "2004-03-13T23:23:44Z")
This has been discussed [recently](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=242656). If you take the scriptural account as a basis, then Judas committed grievous sin when he betrayed Jesus, as several people have indicated from the quotes. If you don’t take the scriptural account as a basis, you can speculate on Judas’ motives, etc. and make up whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![jymjim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/45deac/32.png) [@jymjim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jymjim)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/25 "2004-03-13T23:42:53Z")
He made his choice and played his part, which is all any of us can do. Some good references mentioned in this thread for further reading, thanks for that 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/26 "2004-03-14T00:02:44Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > If you take the scriptural account as a basis, then Judas committed grievous sin when he betrayed Jesus, as several people have indicated from the quotes. If you don’t take the scriptural account as a basis, you can speculate on Judas’ motives, etc. and make up whatever you want. If we don’t take the scriptural account as our basis, what would you suggest we use? I’m not aware of another source, and using no source at all isn’t inquiry, it’s witchcraft. The problem isn’t whether or not we should take it as our basis, it’s whether or not we should accept it in its entirety _prima facie_. We shouldn’t. For what my two cents is worth, I doubt there ever was a Judas Iscariot, and any inquiry into his motives is largely moot. It’s almost a Midrashic story, but not quite Midrash. There’s a name for the type of story it is that escapes me now, I keep wanting to say Targum, but that’s not quite right either. Perhaps a Judaic poster can field that for me (or a non-Judaic one, for that matter), as it’s a technique employed in Rabbinic literature: What’s the term when a story uses the same basic idea as Midrash in that it retells other Jewish stories to make a new point, but differs from Midrash in that the point made is not one regarding the Law? Regards. ---
**Author:** ![Tokyo-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f6c823/32.png) [@Tokyo-John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tokyo-John)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/27 "2004-03-14T02:47:48Z")
> [@Iscariot](#): > > You’ll forgive me if I thnk Biblical exegesis that begins with DaVinci’s Last Supper is inherently questionable. > > Regards. I forgive you. But I still think DaVinci’s interpretation is as valid as all the others I’ve read here. ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/28 "2004-03-14T04:02:21Z")
> [@Tokyo-John](#): > > I forgive you. But I still think DaVinci’s interpretation is as valid as all the others I’ve read here. You didn’t give DaVinci’s interpretation–which isn’t an interpretation at all, it’s simply artistic license–you gave your conclusions from DaVinci’s painting. Exegesis from a painting retroacted onto the centuries earlier gospels. Spice that up with some imaginary events (Nothing, for example, is said of Jesus altering his appearance in Luke 4.16-30–indeed for him to do so would fly flagrant in the face of Luke’s understanding of who Jesus was. You would have it that Jesus was “well-known for altering his appearance.” Funny, there’s no narrative prior to the resurrection experiences that clearly attribute such a change; apparently he wasn’t so well-known for that after all. In similar fashion, you’ve misunderstood why John’s betrayal lacks a Judas kiss. It’s because such an event would be unfathomable to John–it would take control away from Jesus. Thus the “Agony in the Garden” in John has no agony, Jesus’ dying words are a majesterial “It is finished,” and Judas does not deliver him with a kiss. Everything–particularly in the Passion–is completely controlled by Jesus in the fourth gospel.), and we more or less have your reconstruction. The point, of course, is that this isn’t exegesis, it’s eisegesis. You’ve taken DaVinci’s depiction, coupled with your own conclusions, and forced them back on to the texts, rather than allowing a conclusion to spring forth from them. An eisegetical conclusion, as a general rule, isn’t valid at all. Regards. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/29 "2004-03-14T07:06:17Z")
> [@Iscariot](#): > > If we don’t take the scriptural account as our basis, what would you suggest we use? I’m not aware of another source, and using no source at all isn’t inquiry, it’s witchcraft. That’s kind of my point. Speculation into Judas’ motives and outcome typically begin with a rough outline of the Gospel accounts, and then run off into a random intellectual exercise. The source material for Judas’ actions also condemns those actions. ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/30 "2004-03-14T08:55:54Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > That’s kind of my point. Speculation into Judas’ motives and outcome typically begin with a rough outline of the Gospel accounts, and then run off into a random intellectual exercise. The source material for Judas’ actions also condemns those actions. But there are scores of interpretations that spring from the texts and our knowledge of the culture, rather than must be foisted on them. Perhaps, for example, Judas was sympathetic to Caiaphas’ counsel: > [@](#): > > . . .nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. (Jn.11.50, ASV) Or perhaps, as a Jew under Roman rule, Judas felt greater allegiance to the High Priest and to Rome than he did to Jesus. Or perhaps Judas was disappointed to learn that his leader was not the Messianic king that was expected, and that frustration was manifesting itself. One could speculate indefinitely, the question is whether or not that speculation can be supported–whether its speculation as a result of investigation, or just random guessing. Whether it’s inquiry or witchcraft, to use my earlier designations. Regards. ---
**Author:** ![DevilDan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@DevilDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevilDan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664/31 "2004-03-17T04:12:05Z")
Judas was a patsy. I’m sure there was another apostle on the grassy knoll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-sinner-or-saint-not-a-religious-question-but-a-philosophical-issue/233664.md?page=1)