# Judas the saint? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2002, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011 "2002-06-14T10:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/1 "2002-06-14T10:09:29Z")
From the “Was there anything good about Hitler?” thread: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\*Sigh. One of Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s best quotes in “The Life of Christ” was (paraphrasing) “the biggest tragedy about Judas is that he could have been SAINT Judas.” … Shouldn’t we see Judas in a more positive light? I know Christian theology conflicts, but generally most believe that Jesus HAD to die to accomplish his mission. Suppose Judas didn’t do his thing. Jesus would not have died his martyr death and no one would be saved from their sins (very simplified and depending on your view of Christian theology). The argument can be made that JC was going to have to die anyway, even if Judas didn’t act. So why is Judas so hated, if the outcome was impossible to avoid? And it’s not like the outcome was so heinous. A few hours on a crucifix then death (and maybe a visit to hell) for about two and a half days. And then Jesus is up and running with his mission fulfilled (which he knew would happen well in advance). Was Judas merely a cog in some grand plan by an omniscient diety? Then does he deserve to be reviled? Maybe he didn’t have the best intentions in mind, but Judas made our eternal salvation possible! Bully for him, I say! ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/2 "2002-06-14T10:28:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Suppose Judas didn’t do his thing. Jesus would not have died his martyr death and no one would be saved from their sins So, looking at things that way, one could say that Judas was the real martyr? Nah. Don’t buy it. Big J had already pissed off quite enough people with his behavior that they would’ve stapled him to the boards anyway. Judas’ betrayal, if you think about it, probably just hastened the whole ordeal by about an hour or two, at best. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/3 "2002-06-14T12:15:07Z")
He may nto actually be banished to hell. Suicide aside, he did try to repent in is own overblown and rather melodramatic way. I actually hope he isn’t. On another note, some scholars believe from his name he may have been a revolutionary anti-Roman guerrilla or some such. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/4 "2002-06-14T12:54:26Z")
Is he in heaven, or is he in hell? That damned elusive…whoops, wrong character! For an exhaustive look at the question, go here. [http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html](http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew3/D3-JudasIscariot.html) ---
**Author:** ![nahtanoj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@nahtanoj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nahtanoj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/5 "2002-06-14T13:23:19Z")
Look at it this way: Jesus told his disciples that one of them would betray him, and that the one who received the bread with jam on it would be the betrayer. Judas received the piece with the jam, right? Suppose it had been John or Peter? Would they have betrayed him? Did Judas really only betray Jesus because he was told to? Boy, that’s going to really bake your noddle. nahtanoj ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/6 "2002-06-14T13:34:30Z")
Reminds me of the gospel according to Andrew Lloyd Weber! Or Martin Scorsese! ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/7 "2002-06-14T16:10:23Z")
Hey! I’m quoted in another thread! Booyah! Judas might be in heaven for all we know. The Catholic Church only makes pronouncements of who’s in heaven, not in hell. A declaration of sainthood is, on one level, confirmation that the person has made it to the other side. (It’s usually based on miracles which occur when an individual prays for the intercession of that person.) This doesn’t mean that if you’re NOT a “Saint” you’re not in heaven; the title of Sainthood is just an official declaration that the person is there. Then you get churches named after you, and stuff. 😃 Conversely, the church doesn’t make pronouncements of who’s in hell…that’d be judgmental of the person, which is a no-no. (Judge not lest ye be judged, and all that.) The church can only make pronouncements on the morality of actions, not the state of an individual’s soul (Saints being the exception). But back to the original question: no, Judas couldn’t be rewarded for betraying Christ. It’d be oxymoronic for God to make a commandment and then reward Judas for breaking it. Better to think of it this way: on the question of why God allows bad things to happen, a friend explained to me that even artists know where to place black in a painting in order to make it look better. Meaning, God allows sin, but is smart enough to use it to his advantage so that something better can result. In other words, Christ didn’t intend to die, but DID know it was coming, and so was able to work within Judas’ actions to make a better result. If you’re a comic book fan, the best metaphor I can think of is the Jenkins/Lee **Inhumans** series published a few years ago. (A fantastic read if you haven’t read it.) Basically has the same concept: the villain is creating disaster, but the hero is aware of what he’s up to the entire time and uses it to his advantage. ---
**Author:** ![cbtcad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@cbtcad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbtcad)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/8 "2002-06-14T16:12:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nahtanoj \* > \*\*Look at it this way: > > Jesus told his disciples that one of them would betray him, and that the one who received the bread with jam on it would be the betrayer. Judas received the piece with the jam, right? Suppose it had been John or Peter? Would they have betrayed him? Did Judas really only betray Jesus because he was told to? > \*\* If you read the Gospels you will see that Judas went to arrange the betrayal Jesus **before** the Passover meal was held. Jesus wasn’t ordaining who was going to betray him, but instead pointing him out. The passages I point out are: **Matthew 26: 14-19, Mark 14: 1-2 10-11** (you can read the bit in the middle but it has nothing to do with my point),\*\* Luke 22: 1-6, and John 12:4\*\* (but you will need to read some extra lines around it to realize that this is before passover) ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/9 "2002-06-14T18:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nahtanoj \* > \*\*Look at it this way: > > Jesus told his disciples that one of them would betray him, and that the one who received the bread with jam on it would be the betrayer. Judas received the piece with the jam, right? Suppose it had been John or Peter? Would they have betrayed him? Did Judas really only betray Jesus because he was told to? > > Boy, that’s going to really bake your noddle. > > nahtanoj \*\* How about this one: In John 13:21-27, JC tells his guys that whoever gets this piece of bread will betray him. Then in plain view, he gave it to Judas! Why didn’t the others go “Jump him, boys!” or something? Wouldn’t their sin of omission be just as bad as Judas’? Besides, in verse 27, it really wasn’t Judas’ fault. Satan took over his body. Perhaps he could’ve copped the insanity plea. > [@](#): > > On another note, some scholars believe from his name he may have been a revolutionary anti-Roman guerrilla or some such. Interestingly enough, Paul doesn’t mention him at all, even though many of his letters predate the gospels. In 1 Corinthians 15:5, he has Jesus reappearing to “the Twelve”(!). Some scholars believe they added Judas in as a plot device, especially since Judas sounds like Judah/Jew. After 70AD, the Christians went at great lengths to distance themselves from the Jews and downplay the Roman actions in Jesus’ death. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/10 "2002-06-14T18:51:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HubZilla \* > \*\* > > How about this one: > > In John 13:21-27, JC tells his guys that whoever gets this piece of bread will betray him. Then in plain view, he gave it to Judas! > > Why didn’t the others go “Jump him, boys!” or something? Wouldn’t their sin of omission be just as bad as Judas’? > > Besides, in verse 27, it really wasn’t Judas’ fault. Satan took over his body. Perhaps he could’ve copped the insanity plea. \*\* My guess: they all took the same bread, but John is pointing out Judas specifically as a literary device. (I don’t have my Bible in front of me, but I’d like to see the exact language.) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HubZilla \* > \*\* > Interestingly enough, Paul doesn’t mention him at all, even though many of his letters predate the gospels. In 1 Corinthians 15:5, he has Jesus reappearing to “the Twelve”(!). Some scholars believe they added Judas in as a plot device, especially since Judas sounds like Judah/Jew. After 70AD, the Christians went at great lengths to distance themselves from the Jews and downplay the Roman actions in Jesus’ death. \*\* Thomas (I THINK it was Thomas) replaced Judas, so the number went back to 12 by the reappearance. ---
**Author:** ![cbtcad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@cbtcad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbtcad)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judas-the-saint/114011/11 "2002-06-14T22:46:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > > * * * > > Thomas (I THINK it was Thomas) replaced Judas, so the number went back to 12 by the reappearance. \*\* Nah, it was a guy called Matthias. See Acts 1: 23-26.