# Judd Apatow's Lazily Written Black Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857 "2007-06-13T15:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/1 "2007-06-13T15:13:57Z")
“This is great so far - and best of all there are no black characters!” Those were my thoughts about halfway into _Knocked Up_. Right before the bouncer scene. I loved _Knocked Up_. I _loved_ “Freaks & Geeks”. I don’t remember much of “Undeclared” (it went quickly), but I probably would have liked it if it survived. Apatow’s got this gift of crafting these complete, realistic, familiar well-thought-out characters who are anything but a jumble of Hollywood cliches. Unless they’re black. That’s what’s so insulting. A hack making hacky black characters is meaningless, but when someone this talented reveals his dismissive view of blacks so blatantly it’s such a slap in the face. I couldn’t enjoy _40-Year-Old Virgin_ because he chose to make a black person a featured member of the ensemble. Despite being a character who apparently had exclusively white friends, he was played unrealistically to type, and played the part of the casually misogynistic friend. And Apatow made it clear to us that this misogyny was not a unique aspect of this specific character’s personality. No - his warning to the 40-year-old virgin against “putting the pussy on a pedestal” is echoed by a completely unrelated black character later in the movie. Then there’s this [middle-finger](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0KfG-kwJh8) of a scene that’s thrown in there for no discernible reason, where apparently they’re running off some check list of insulting black stereotypes and seeing if they can exploit them all in under two minutes. Why does all of his other characters get so much thought and care put into them, but for the black characters he thinks he can mash together a few played-out media conventions mixed with some overheard subway conversations and he’s done his job? Have the bouncer drop a few conjunctives and refer to two white women as “bitches” right in front of their faces (without them flinching because that’s just how black people talk, apparently) and bam, there’s your black character. Pigeon-holers might assume by now that’s I’m some uptight, sensitive hypocrite that can’t take black’s being ridiculed for comic effect. Wrong - I can’t take lazy comedy, and it’s especially offensive (because it’s so common) when blacks are involved. As a person who considers himself a comedy afficiannado, I appreciate any well thought out gag, _especially_ if that thought is expended on a black subject. I consider [this scene](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G3GErzaMzY) to easily be the funniest scene in film within the last decade. Foxxy Love is my favorite character on “Drawn Together”. C-Bass is my favorite character on “Halfway Home” next to the hyper-violent Serenity. Why? Because these scenes and characters aren’t just lazily regurgitating things that I’ve actually only ever witnessed in entertainment media. Evident is effort to reveal a clever perspective, or share spry insight on phenomena I actually find familiar. We all know the old cliche about the black person who talks to the screen during a horror movie. But having her respond exactly the same way to a romantic comedy, and pulling it off so that it’s believable? That’s genius. I’ve never seen anyone do the little hand motion that Brenda did when she told the audience member to get out of her face, but it looked exactly like something the girls in my high school would have come up with. The people behind that sequence knew what they were talking about. All I’m saying is if he doesn’t want to get deep into the psyche his black characters like he does with all the other ones, what’s the problem with leaving them out instead of insulting a big chunk of his potential audience? The same rant goes for Kevin Smith, which is why my favorite KS movie is the black-free _Clerks_ (well, that’s not the only reason why but it does help). ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/2 "2007-06-13T15:41:05Z")
I can see where you’re coming from, but I’m not quite sure I get what makes the black character in _40-Year-Old Virgin_ less acceptable than the other characters you mention, who (IMO) are even more egregiously patterned on black stereotypes. (That guy seemed unrealistic to you, but you don’t have any problem with “Foxxy Love” or the “ghetto momma” character on “Halfway Home?”) I think you have a legitimate point that Apatow’s strength is not in writing dialogue for black characters, but I think he’s in a kind of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation— my suspicion, at least, is that you may be an exception in your willingness to overlook a cast devoid of black actors, and that black audiences would consider that a greater insult than including one or two characters who may not be quite as three-dimensional as the rest of the cast. (But what do I know? I’m white and I thought the Jay character from _The 40-Y-O V_ was pretty funny, although I fully agree with you on the bouncer in _Knocked Up_— that was a pretty lame inclusion in an otherwise very good movie.) ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/3 "2007-06-13T16:17:32Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] I can see where you’re coming from, but I’m not quite sure I get what makes the black character in _40-Year-Old Virgin_ less acceptable than the other characters you mention, who (IMO) are even more egregiously patterned on black stereotypes. (That guy seemed unrealistic to you, but you don’t have any problem with “Foxxy Love” or the “ghetto momma” character on “Halfway Home?”) [/QUOTE] Two big reasons - 1. their respective show and films are self-consciously over-the-top while Apatow’s comedies are meant to be subtle, realistic character-driven ensembles. 2. They’re immediately contrasted with normal, non-type blacks who appear in the same productions while every single black Apatow character who speaks is an offensive stereotype. In addition are the things that I mentioned, that their stereotypical idiosyncrasies seem familiar (which is why they’re stereotypes) and that they aren’t usually the gags in of themselves but vehicles for more thoughtful jokes. > [@](#): > > I think you have a legitimate point that Apatow’s strength is not in writing dialogue for black characters, but I think he’s in a kind of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation Not really, since the third, obvious option is, if he doesn’t know why to convincingly write black characters to type, is to not think of them as black characters. Talk with whoever’s producing “My Name is Earl”, which has had plenty of funny, speaking black characters with none being “types” yet - including Darnell, who despite being a criminal, an adulterer and on the surface somewhat dull, is still not performed to type. > [@](#): > > — my suspicion, at least, is that you may be an exception in your willingness to overlook a cast devoid of black actors, and that black audiences would consider that a greater insult than including one or two characters who may not be quite as three-dimensional as the rest of the cast. Plenty might think that way, I’m sure, but I don’t think I’m such a unique exception. I’d guess that people simpleminded enough to think that way wouldn’t be interested in character studies like that in the first place, so their opinion doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/4 "2007-06-13T16:26:26Z")
Missed the edit window but I wanted to slip in: “Not really, since the third, obvious option is, if he doesn’t know why to convincingly write black characters to type, is to not think of them as black characters. He didn’t have to figure out how the hilariously jerky Asian doctor’s Asianess figured into his character, or what Paul Rudd’s ex’s Indianess had to do with her. Why should it be so hard to do the same for black characters? Talk with whoever’s producing “My Name is Earl”…etc.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/5 "2007-06-13T16:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The same rant goes for Kevin Smith, which is why my favorite KS movie is the black-free Clerks (well, that’s not the only reason why but it does help). Kevin Smith? I can see complaining about Smith’s female characters but his black characters? His two main black characters were Hooper X in _Chasing Amy_ and Rufus in _Dogma_. Three, if you add Becky from _Clerks II_ (depending on if you consider Rosario Dawson black or hispanic). I don’t see any of them as being a typical black character or as being the same type of character. Other black characters like Earthquake and Wanda Sykes in _Clerks II_, Tracy Morgan and Chris Rock in _Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back_, or Dwight Ewell in _Dogma_ were more limited characters but they were all minor characters who only appeared in single scenes. They were one-joke characters but they were only there for one joke. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/6 "2007-06-13T16:45:00Z")
I haven’t seen **Knocked up** , but amen about Jay in **40 YOV**. I tried to not bristle at how patently stereotypical that character was played and almost succeeded at it, until I got to the scene you mentioned. That was a big WTF? moment if there ever was one. And (unless I missed something) it had nothing to do with the plot, it advanced the storyline not one bit, and it brought nothing in terms of comedic value. It was a waste of two minutes in an otherwise funny movie. > [@Vinyl Turnip](#): > > I think you have a legitimate point that Apatow’s strength is not in writing dialogue for black characters, but I think he’s in a kind of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation— my suspicion, at least, is that you may be an exception in your willingness to overlook a cast devoid of black actors, and that black audiences would consider that a greater insult than including one or two characters who may not be quite as three-dimensional as the rest of the cast. You should rethink your suspicion. I myself started a thread way back about **Charlie’s Angels 2** in which I bitched about how the I-from-the-hood black Bosley character made my eyes roll into the back of my head. I would much prefer writers to stick to white characters, if they can’t write a black character to be anything but a mishmash of lame, played-out stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/7 "2007-06-13T16:53:30Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Kevin Smith? I can see complaining about Smith’s female characters but his black characters? His two main black characters were Hooper X in _Chasing Amy_ [/QUOTE] Where he was able to fit both the militant, angry black man and the super queeny gay black guy into the same character. That’s advanced level offensive stereotyping. > [@](#): > > and Rufus in _Dogma_. Okay, I don’t really remember being annoyed by Chris Rock’s character in _Dogma_, but then that was so long ago, so I can’t immediately recall whether it fits with Smith’s pattern. > [@](#): > > Three, if you add Becky from _Clerks II_ (depending on if you consider Rosario Dawson black or hispanic). I skipped _Clerks II_ (and black and Hispanic aren’t mutually exclusive). > [@](#): > > Other black characters like Earthquake and Wanda Sykes in _Clerks II_, Tracy Morgan and Chris Rock in _Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back_, or Dwight Ewell in _Dogma_ were more limited characters but they were all minor characters who only appeared in single scenes. They were one-joke characters but they were only there for one joke. That doesn’t excuse them - they were tired, played-out jokes. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/8 "2007-06-13T17:03:10Z")
What problem could you possibly have with the bouncer character in _Knocked Up_? ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/9 "2007-06-13T17:26:24Z")
True, but its not like Kevin Smiths white characters are well written either. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/10 "2007-06-13T17:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] What problem could you possibly have with the bouncer character in _Knocked Up_? [/QUOTE] No kidding. The bouncer wasn’t a black character. That was Craig Robinson from The Office, playing a bit part like several other The Office members in the movie were. Craig just happens to be black. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/11 "2007-06-13T17:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=Enderw24] No kidding. The bouncer wasn’t a black character. That was Craig Robinson from The Office, playing a bit part like several other The Office members in the movie were. Craig just happens to be black. [/QUOTE] Really? So no one would flinch at a white character referring to two women as “bitches” right in front of their faces either, as he was supposed to be giving a heartfelt monologue? It wasn’t an obvious, big-deal situation but in the end he was the only black character that spoke during the movie and he was a type unlike all the other real people in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/12 "2007-06-13T18:25:04Z")
One slang term, more or less identified as a “black” slang term, from a rather sympathetic bit character? You’re actually upset about that? It was a joke, and good one, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as funny without the “bitches.” Besides, the character is a bouncer – of course he’s supposed to use slang. If anything, it’s the rest of the monologue that’s unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/13 "2007-06-13T19:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] One slang term, more or less identified as a “black” slang term, from a rather sympathetic bit character? You’re actually upset about that? It was a joke, and good one, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as funny without the “bitches.” Besides, the character is a bouncer – of course he’s supposed to use slang. If anything, it’s the rest of the monologue that’s unrealistic. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: God damn it, I give an example and it because the only reason. Look, read the entire monologue: > [@](#): > > Bouncer: I know… you’re right. I’m so sorry, I fuckin’ hate this job. I don’t want to be the one to pass judgement, decide who gets in. Shit makes me sick to my stomach, I get the runs from the stress. It’s not cause you’re not hot, I would love to tap that ass. I would tear that ass up. I can’t let you in cause you’re old as fuck. For this club, you know, not for the earth. > Debbie: What? > Bouncer: You old, she pregnant. Can’t have a bunch of old pregnant bitches running around. That’s crazy, I’m only allowed to let in five percent black people. He said that, that means if there’s 25 people here I get to let in one and a quarter black people. So I gotta hope there’s a midget in the crowd. Is it not obvious, now, that this guy was a big, fat freaking stereotype in the middle of a movie filled with non-stereotypes? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/14 "2007-06-13T19:11:40Z")
And you misspelled “slur”. That’s like me saying “coon” is a white slang term, and then having a white bouncer in my movie saying “we can’t have a bunch of short, overweight coons running around in the club” to a couple of unflinching black characters during what’s supposed to be a heartfelt monologue, and expecting everyone to believe that scene because that’s how white people are. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/15 "2007-06-13T19:19:15Z")
Meh, I guess I can see where you’re coming from, but I think it’s a remarkably small deal in this case – at worst, I think it’s a matter of Apatow being bad at writing black characters. Also, it’s genuinely funny, and funny goes a long way. > [@](#): > > Is it not obvious, now, that this guy was a big, fat freaking stereotype in the middle of a movie filled with non-stereotypes? There were other stereotypes: the catty career-woman, the crazy stoners. Probably a few others that I’m forgetting. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/16 "2007-06-13T19:28:13Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] at worst, I think it’s a matter of Apatow being bad at writing black characters. [/QUOTE] Well _that’s what the crap I’m talking about!_ But to be clear, I don’t think Apatow actually wrote his lines, or Jay’s more obnoxious ones. Supposedly many of these lines are ad libbed. But as the autuer those characterizations are ultimately his responsibility. It’s not a coincidence that all the black characters just happen to be that way in his films, even if he didn’t start out writing them that way before hand. > [@](#): > > There were other stereotypes: the catty career-woman, the crazy stoners. Probably a few others that I’m forgetting. The closest I could give you is crazy stoners. There was no character who could be completely summed up as “catty career-woman”. And “crazy stoners” is a lot more specific than “black guy”. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/17 "2007-06-13T19:38:11Z")
Oh, and to repeat myself, the big deal comes from the fact that this guy is otherwise talented. Which means his characterizations of blacks reveal an insulting level of dismissiveness that’s at best merely lazy and at worst intentionally malicious. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/18 "2007-06-13T19:38:36Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] The closest I could give you is crazy stoners. There was no character who could be completely summed up as “catty career-woman”. And “crazy stoners” is a lot more specific than “black guy”. [/QUOTE] I think he was referring to the SNL girl in the scenes with Alan Tudyk. I guess I can’t really agree with you. I thought the bouncer acted and talked how I’d expect a bouncer at a popular city club would act and talk, regardless of skin colour. Would you have felt better if one of the four stoners was black? They could have had the exact same lines, and then you’d be accusing him of portraying the guy as the stereotypical, oversexualized, drug-obsessed, poor black man. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/19 "2007-06-13T19:38:51Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > at worst, I think it’s a matter of Apatow being bad at writing black characters. > > Well that’s what the crap I’m talking about! Oh. Well, who cares? Also, thanks for making a good point for me: yeah, there’s a very good chance that that dialogue was created by the actor portraying the bouncer. What’s Apatow supposed to do, tell him that he has to come up with something else because he doesn’t think it’s something a black person would actually say? > [@](#): > > There was no character who could be completely summed up as “catty career-woman” Yes there was. Whenever Katherine Heigl (sp?) went to talk to her boss in his office, she was sitting next to an older woman who’s sole reason for being in the film was to utter subtle put-downs about the younger, prettier woman by whom she felt threatened. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/20 "2007-06-13T19:48:04Z")
Well, I haven’t seen **Knocked Up** , but I’m a huge fan of **40-Year-Old Virgin** so I’ll address that. Look, that movie was filled with stereotypes and cartoonish characters – the vomiting blonde club slut (played by Apatow’s wife, I believe), the foul-mouthed, thick-accented East Asian clerk at the store, the other blonde slutty chick from the bookstore, the “Jew-fro” nebbishy kid at the health clinic, and even Carell’s character Andy – who’s not just a virgin, but a miniature-model-painting, video-game-playing, action-figure-collecting virgin. What Apatow excels in is taking these caricatures and showing sympathy and affection for them by using behaviors we recognize in ourselves. I believed Jay’s genuine feelings towards his fiancee in the tear-filled, remorseful scene with Andy. Plus he’s funny as hell. Jay’s my second favorite character in the film, aside from Andy. From the monologue I’m reading above, it sounds like a bouncer using normal language for a bouncer. He sounds sympathetic to the ‘old’ women here, and as if he’s using the term ‘pregnant bitches’ as how others would see them. But I could be wrong. Just doesn’t ping my outrageometer, FWIW. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857.md?page=2)