# Judd Apatow's Lazily Written Black Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857 "2007-06-13T15:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/21 "2007-06-13T19:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] They could have had the exact same lines, and then you’d be accusing him of portraying the guy as the stereotypical, oversexualized, drug-obsessed, poor black man. [/QUOTE] And what have I said that would lead you to make prediction? I’m glad I had the foresight to write the (hold on…)…fifth paragraph of my OP. Too bad some people can’t read. [QUOTE=VarlosZ] Yes there was. Whenever Katherine Heigl (sp?) went to talk to her boss in his office, she was sitting next to an older woman who’s sole reason for being in the film was to utter subtle put-downs about the younger, prettier woman by whom she felt threatened. [/QUOTE] And that’s what you’d call a stereotypical portrayal of a catty career woman? Wig’s performance was anything but cliched. > [@](#): > > Oh. Well, who cares? Who do you think, cares you idiot. Why would I want to flat out insulted by a movie? > [@](#): > > Also, thanks for making a good point for me: yeah, there’s a very good chance that that dialogue was created by the actor portraying the bouncer. What’s Apatow supposed to do, tell him that he has to come up with something else because he doesn’t think it’s something a black person would actually say? Uh, yeah, he’s the director. And if that sounds baffling to you, replace “black” in your quote with “actual” and you’ll get it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/22 "2007-06-13T19:50:47Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Well _that’s what the crap I’m talking about!_ But to be clear, I don’t think Apatow actually wrote his lines, or Jay’s more obnoxious ones. Supposedly many of these lines are ad libbed. But as the autuer those characterizations are ultimately his responsibility. It’s not a coincidence that all the black characters just happen to be that way in his films, even if he didn’t start out writing them that way before hand. [/QUOTE] Heh. Yeah, I’d love to see how that would play out. “Cut! Sorry, Craig, that’s not how black people talk! Let’s try that again, but remember: you’re a black person! Try to act like one!” ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/23 "2007-06-13T19:53:45Z")
I agree with you 100% about that one Jay scene in 40-Year-Old Virgin. He was otherwise a pretty funny character. There was also the issue of the South Asian dudes used apparently only because they talk funny (kind of a Letterman humor staple). However, I thought the bouncer scene in this recent movie was really interesting, and well-played, and funny. It starts out with her abusing him, in a totally uncalled-for way, and moves to him insulting them, it’s a great reversal. And funny as fuck. “Not, you know, for the earth.” Funny. I guess I see that it uses black speech stereotypes. But this is a movie full of unflattering stereotypes (white slacker stoners, anyone?), most of them funny. So I kind of see what you mean, but not in the specific situation you mention. Also of interest- there is a ton of improvisation in these movies. These lines may or may not have been written by Apatow and may or may not have been created by the actors. (edit- I see that you have acknowledged this) ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/24 "2007-06-13T19:57:44Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] And what have I said that would lead you to make prediction? I’m glad I had the foresight to write the (hold on…)…fifth paragraph of my OP. Too bad some people can’t read. [/QUOTE] I read your entire OP. I don’t think that actually addresses the question. My point wasn’t that you, necessarily, would make tht argument, but that it could, in general, be made if one of the characters had been black. And it would be just as convincing as the one made in the OP. I don’t know. Maybe I’m missing something here. I really just can’t see evidence of what you’re talking about, and I very rarely find myself disagreeing with **you with the face** ’s comments in threads on the topic of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/25 "2007-06-13T20:01:10Z")
On second thought, **you with the face** only commented on _40 Year Old Virgin_, which I can’t even remember very well. Please take my comments as referring to _Knocked Up_ only. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/26 "2007-06-13T20:02:27Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] I read your entire OP. I don’t think that actually addresses the question. My point wasn’t that you, necessarily, would make tht argument, but that it could, in general, be made if one of the characters had been black. And it would be just as convincing as the one made in the OP. [/QUOTE] How would it be just as convincing? > [@](#): > > I don’t know. Maybe I’m missing something here. I really just can’t see evidence of what you’re talking about, and I very rarely find myself disagreeing with **you with the face** ’s comments in threads on the topic of racism. Well not to speak for her, but she hasn’t agreed w/ me on the bouncer scene. And if I didn’t make this clear, I don’t think that the bouncer scene was a big deal, but it was there and noteworthy. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/27 "2007-06-13T20:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > And that’s what you’d call a stereotypical portrayal of a catty career woman? Of course! There was nothing at all to that character _except_ for the fact that she was mean to younger, prettier woman because she was younger and prettier and moving up in the world. > [@](#): > > Who do you think, cares you idiot. Why would I want to flat out insulted by a movie? I don’t know, but I do think you’re reaching here. You had a bug up your butt (perhaps justifiably) after _40 Year Old Virgin_, and maybe you were a little too eager to get upset about the same thing this time around. It happens; perception is a powerful variable. > [@](#): > > Uh, yeah, he’s the director. And if that sounds baffling to you, replace “black” in your quote with “actual” and you’ll get it. Every other scene has dialogue that no actual person would actually say, but they leave it in because it’s a comedy, and it’s funny. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/28 "2007-06-13T20:07:10Z")
Well, you’re arguing that he’s using stereotypes rather than fleshing out characters, correct? Do you think that the stoners in the movie - poor, oversexualized drug addicts - don’t fulfill stereotypes about black men? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/29 "2007-06-13T20:07:18Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] Meh, I guess I can see where you’re coming from, but I think it’s a remarkably small deal in this case – at worst, I think it’s a matter of Apatow being bad at writing black characters. Also, it’s genuinely funny, and funny goes a long way. [/QUOTE] Also important is that it _wasn’t_ really funny at all. That’s where my complaint lies. Not in the exploitation of race-based stereotypes, but in the tired, lazy exploitation of race-based stereotypes. We get it - black people say “tap that ass” and “bitches” (even though I’ve never really heard anyone say “tap that ass” in real life, or get away with calling women bitches to their faces). You showing me yet another one doing so is not going to make me laugh. Seriously, what part of that scene was funny to you and why? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/30 "2007-06-13T20:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] Of course! There was nothing at all to that character _except_ for the fact that she was mean to younger, prettier woman because she was younger and prettier and moving up i the world. [/QUOTE] She was catty, she had a career, and she was a woman. _But was her performance cliched?_ > [@](#): > > I don’t know, but I do think you’re reaching here. You had a bug up your butt (perhaps justifiably) after _40 Year Old Virgin_, and maybe you were a little too eager to get upset about the same thing this time around. It happens; perception is a powerful variable. Not really - like I said, I didn’t think it was really a big deal and I loved the movie overall. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/31 "2007-06-13T20:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously, what part of that scene was funny to you and why? I enjoyed the whole thing, but particularly the line “can’t have a bunch of old, pregnant bitches running around the club.” Also, “for this club, you know, not for the earth.” As for why . . . I don’t know. It’s a crazy conversation with impeccable timing by the performers, that probably had something to do with it. I’m pretty sure it’s not because I secretly love minstrel shows. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/32 "2007-06-13T20:19:07Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] She was catty, she had a career, and she was a woman. _But was her performance cliched?_ [/QUOTE] _Yes._ That’s not to say that it wasn’t funny or well executed, but there was nothing about the character’s conception or portrayal that we haven’t seen many times before. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/33 "2007-06-13T20:19:39Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] Well, you’re arguing that he’s using stereotypes rather than fleshing out characters, correct? Do you think that the stoners in the movie - poor, oversexualized drug addicts - don’t fulfill stereotypes about black men? [/QUOTE] Yeah, but that wouldn’t be a lazy melding of stereotypes just to create a character, that would be a character with a few qualities that happen to be stereotypical to his ethnic group - especially if he were only one of four who shared the same traits. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/34 "2007-06-13T20:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, but that wouldn’t be a lazy melding of stereotypes just to create a character, _that would be a character with a few qualities that happen to be stereotypical to his ethnic group_. . . You say Tomato, I say Tomahto. That’s about how I would describe the bouncer character. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/35 "2007-06-13T20:28:45Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] You say Tomato, I say Tomahto. That’s about how I would describe the bouncer character. [/QUOTE] What made him type is that his stereotypical traits were _exclusive_ to his ethnic group - not universal traits that happen to be associated sometimes with his group like over-sexualized, drug-obsessed, and poor are. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/36 "2007-06-13T20:31:58Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] _Yes._ That’s not to say that it wasn’t funny or well executed, but there was nothing about the character’s conception or portrayal that we haven’t seen many times before. [/QUOTE] Well, I just don’t believe you, but I can’t expect you to wrack your brain for examples. Kirstin Wig’s performance was a unique take on a passive-aggressive jealous employee, I thought, or else I wouldn’t have laughed. If it is cliched, well then it just happened to work for me that I didn’t know that. EDIT: In other words, if one of the stoners were black, it wouldn’t be obvious that anyone said “This is a black character, so let’s make him poor, drug-addicted, and over-sexualized” like it was obvious that someone said "This is a black character, so let’s make him drop conjunctives, say “tap that ass”, and call them “bitches”. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/37 "2007-06-13T20:34:50Z")
Well then, in that vein, the bouncer character was also not cliched. When do you ever see that kind of character step aside and say how he realizes how stupid his job is, but he has no choice to do what he’s doing? It’s a complete off guard moment in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Figaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@Figaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Figaro)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/38 "2007-06-13T20:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=stolichnaya] However, I thought the bouncer scene in this recent movie was really interesting, and well-played, and funny. [/QUOTE] I’d like to echo this. I distinctly remember watching the bouncer scene in \*Knocked Up \* and thinking “wow – he actually took time to give the bouncer a real moment.” I left that scene with sympathy for him, and appreciating the way he taught the bitchy sister character an object lesson in kindness (he was way nicer to her than she deserved) without Apatow beating anyone over the head with it. My two cents… ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/39 "2007-06-13T20:39:29Z")
whoops, that edit shouldn’t have went with that post… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857/40 "2007-06-13T20:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Also important is that it _wasn’t_ really funny at all. That’s where my complaint lies. Not in the exploitation of race-based stereotypes, but in the tired, lazy exploitation of race-based stereotypes. We get it - black people say “tap that ass” and “bitches” (even though I’ve never really heard anyone say “tap that ass” in real life, or get away with calling women bitches to their faces). You showing me yet another one doing so is not going to make me laugh. Seriously, what part of that scene was funny to you and why? [/QUOTE] I’ll field this one. Funny stuff is in red, explanation in parenthesis: > [@](#): > > Bouncer: I know… you’re right. _(This is funny because, after being shrieked at by Debbie for three minutes, you don’t expect the bouncer to agree with her criticisms.)_ I’m so sorry, I fuckin’ hate this job. I don’t want to be the one to pass judgement, decide who gets in. Shit makes me sick to my stomach, I get the runs from the stress. _(The humor here comes from the stereotype of bouncers in general as petty martinets who love to exercise their very limited power, when in fact this guy is so conflicted about his job that it’s affecting his physical health.)_ It’s not cause you’re not hot, I would love to tap that ass. I would tear that ass up. I can’t let you in cause you’re old as fuck. For this club, you know, not for the earth. … You old, she pregnant. Can’t have a bunch of old pregnant bitches running around. _(The use of “old pregnant bitches” and “tap that ass” are funny in this context because these misogynistic phrases are being contrasted with a generally enlightened viewpoint. They aren’t funny just because it’s a black guy saying them, and the scene could have worked just as well with a white bouncer.)_ That’s crazy, I’m only allowed to let in five percent black people. He said that, that means if there’s 25 people here I get to let in one and a quarter black people. So I gotta hope there’s a midget in the crowd. _(This is funny because he said “midget.”)_ I thought it was one of the funniest scenes in the movie, right after the “five chairs” scene in the hotel. And very little of the humor of the scene was derived from racial stereotypes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judd-apatows-lazily-written-black-characters/407857.md?page=3)