# Judge clears 'Stairway to Heaven' copyright case for trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [April 12, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012 "2016-04-12T16:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/21 "2016-04-13T02:55:39Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > This [Guardian article](http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/12/stairway-to-heavens-opening-chords-may-have-been-stolen-judge-says)links to a musician demonstrating the similarities and differences pretty well. > > Seems arguable to me. That video is a very fair summary of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/22 "2016-04-13T03:36:11Z")
The video comparison is very good. Excellent in fact. But getting a jury to understand these musical distinctions is tough. People tend to use their ears. They hear a few chords or notes that match and they jump to the wrong conclusion. Our minds play tricks on us. It’s like seeing familiar objects in those Mars pictures. We do the same with music. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/23 "2016-04-13T04:04:05Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Sure, it sounds ‘similar’, but most of the actual notes are completely different… > Led Zeppelin stole [plenty of songs](http://www.musictimes.com/articles/6250/20140520/7-songs-other-than-stairway-to-heaven-that-led-zeppelin-stole.htm), but this isn’t one of them. Horse puckey. If separated by years or geography maybe. But they shared the same stage and Taurus got there first. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/24 "2016-04-13T04:09:54Z")
I expect LZ’s defence will be to find numerous other songs that also use a descending chromatic line and predate the Spirit tune. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/25 "2016-04-13T04:24:44Z")
They clearly plagiarized the song. This will be yet another case of LZ having to pony up and share credit with artists from whom they stole music. Compare the original versions of LZ’s records with the latest versions and you will see drastic differences in the songwriting credits. That’s because LZ has lost case after case over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/26 "2016-04-13T04:28:29Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > . . but, musically ignorant people can see similarities when very few exist. . . I’ve played guitar, mandolin, banjo, and ukulele for forty years; I was a professional musician for eight years; I can still play STH note-for-note: it’s obvious to these ears that this song was plagiarized. At least this time they didn’t turn a great song into dreck, e.g. “Nobody’s Fault But Mine.” ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/27 "2016-04-13T04:29:42Z")
Now I’m starting to wonder when [these six country artists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY8SwIvxj8o) will end up suing each other. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/28 "2016-04-13T10:09:50Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > I’ve played guitar, mandolin, banjo, and ukulele for forty years; I was a professional musician for eight years; I can still play STH note-for-note: it’s obvious to these ears that this song was plagiarized. > > At least this time they didn’t turn a great song into dreck, e.g. “Nobody’s Fault But Mine.” Well the good news is you can pretty much play Taurus as well! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/29 "2016-04-13T11:12:31Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > They clearly plagiarized the song. This will be yet another case of LZ having to pony up and share credit with artists from whom they stole music. Compare the original versions of LZ’s records with the latest versions and you will see drastic differences in the songwriting credits. That’s because LZ has lost case after case over the years. Just to be clear here, Led Zeppelin is not charged with “plagiarism.” They are charged with copyright infringement. Plagiarism is not a legal concept and it is much broader than copyright infringement. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/30 "2016-04-13T14:17:49Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Now I’m starting to wonder when [these six country artists](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY8SwIvxj8o) will end up suing each other. That is very interesting. I didn’t bother looking up the songwriting credits of those six songs. Did any come from the same songwriters? What are the dates of the songs? Did all six come out of the Nashville Country Music factory? I realize that pop and country music are very formulaic, but those six songs and the mashup sound like most of what passes for country music nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/31 "2016-04-13T14:50:22Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I expect LZ’s defence will be to find numerous other songs that also use a descending chromatic line and predate the Spirit tune. Heck, the guy linked to in the video above explaining the differences and similarities shows a few songs–including ones that Zep wrote–that predate the Spirit tune. My thoughts? I have little doubt that Zeppelin got the idea from the Spirit tune, especially as they were touring together. It may very well have even been an unconscious influence – I’ve written songs where years later I hear the same riff on the radio and realize that either I’ve heard the song before and coincidentally ripped it off, or I’ve unconsciously “borrowed” it. And I’ve heard it the other way around, too, with hearing a song years later on the radio that sounded very much like a song me or my musician friends had written, but obviously were just coincidences. Now, like I said, I don’t think this is a coincidence, but I do think the material is a sufficient reworking of a basic idea (broken chords, descending bassline) that I personally wouldn’t want that to count as copyright infringement. If that’s the metric, I can find hundreds or thousands of songs that share similar features. Where is the line? I mean, the [first few notes of the Foo Fighters “The Pretender”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjQ9tuuTJQ&nohtml5=False) sound exactly like Stairway (but not Taurus) before veering off. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/32 "2016-04-13T15:40:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Heck, the guy linked to in the video above explaining the differences and similarities shows a few songs–including ones that Zep wrote–that predate the Spirit tune. > > My thoughts? I have little doubt that Zeppelin got the idea from the Spirit tune, especially as they were touring together. It may very well have even been an unconscious influence – I’ve written songs where years later I hear the same riff on the radio and realize that either I’ve heard the song before and coincidentally ripped it off, or I’ve unconsciously “borrowed” it. And I’ve heard it the other way around, too, with hearing a song years later on the radio that sounded very much like a song me or my musician friends had written, but obviously were just coincidences. > > Now, like I said, I don’t think this is a coincidence, but I do think the material is a sufficient reworking of a basic idea (broken chords, descending bassline) that I personally wouldn’t want that to count as copyright infringement. If that’s the metric, I can find hundreds or thousands of songs that share similar features. Where is the line? I mean, the [first few notes of the Foo Fighters “The Pretender”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjQ9tuuTJQ&nohtml5=False) sound exactly like Stairway (but not Taurus) before veering off. This. I once saw a comedian who used one of those handheld electronic keyboards as a prop in his act. For one of his bits, he would play part of the chord progression at the beginning of STH, and ask people to “name that tune”. Since that progression is present in numerous pop songs, audience members would shout out guesses, all of which he’d say were wrong, ultimately naming a song that no one had guessed. I thought this was a great example of how musicians and songwriters see similarities differently than the general audience does. Since STH is possibly the best known song with that progression, it was always one of the guesses. (Another was “Feelings” by Morris Albert, a song which, were it mine, I would probably let people steal it rather than admit to writing). 🙂 I suspect LZ is facing this in part because they did act like total shits for so long, ripping off old blues musicians. Doesn’t mean they’re guilty here. An interesting song to look at is “She’s Electric” by Oasis. Practically the whole song resembles other well-known songs. The bridge (“And I want you to know…”) starts out identically to the bridge of “While My Guitar Gently Weeps” (“I don’t know why-y-y-y…”). Further in the bridge (“There’s lots and lots, for us to see”) is identical to the Coca-Cola ad (“I’d like to teach, the world to sing”). And the last two bars are almost the same as the last two bars of “A Little Help From My Friends” (“La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la” - _hell, they even stole the lyrics!_ 😉 ). About the only part that I can’t find elsewhere is the verse, which still is based on a very common chord progression (e.g., the chorus of Roy Orbison’s “You Got It”). So, does “She’s Electric” infringe? Hell no. It’s woven together into an original (and IMO very nice) song in a manner undetectable to the general population. That’s showbiz. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/33 "2016-04-13T16:00:42Z")
I’m having a hard time finding it online now … but I thought that Randy California had given an interview in the 1990s that explained that he was aware that Page had lifted a bit from “Taurus”, but that he had essentially absolved Page and wasn’t concerned with pursuing anything legally. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/34 "2016-04-13T16:18:48Z")
I’m just chiming in to say **pulykamell** pretty much nails my thoughts on this one. They’re similar, but not close enough for me to see it as copyright infringement. On a related note, I’m still on the fence when it comes to “Blurred Lines”. They don’t share one note, it’s really a question of whether or not studio production is copyright-able. Studio work is difficult work, but I’m not sure it’s really copyright-able. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/35 "2016-04-13T16:23:13Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I’m having a hard time finding it online now … but I thought that Randy California had given an interview in the 1990s that explained that he was aware that Page had lifted a bit from “Taurus”, but that he had essentially absolved Page and wasn’t concerned with pursuing anything legally. OK, found the reference – very shortly before his death, Randy California gave an interview to _Listener_ magazine for their Winter 1997 issue\*\*. I could have sworn the _Listener_ article in full was available online (an excerpt is given at the tribute site [randycaliforniaspirit.com](http://randycaliforniaandspirit.com/articles/)), but I am having trouble scaring it up now. However, the pertinent part of the _Listener_ article is quoted at [this link](http://turnmeondeadman.com/led-zeppelin-plagiarism-stairway-to-heaven/): > [@](#): > > Led Zeppelin’s critics, such as Will Shade, are quick to point out, however, that the opening guitar riff bears a striking similarity to the song “Taurus” by Spirit, included on their self-titled debut album which was released in 1968. Randy California, who wrote “Taurus”, was aware of the similarity between his song and “Stairway to Heaven” but always maintained a low-key response when asked about it. A number of websites have repeated (without attribution) the notion that Randy California didn’t regard “Stairway to Heaven” as plagiarism, but rather as a “reworking” of his song. This is definitely not the case. Randy California clearly had strong feelings about this, even though he chose not to make a big issue of it. According to his mother, Bernice Pearl, “when people would ask Randy about [Stairway to Heaven], he used to always say, ‘Let it go.'” but then she went on to say, “There should have been at least one telephone call from Led Zeppelin, some sort of ‘Thank you.’ Something. But it never came.” > > He had the chance to have his say about the similarity between “Taurus” and “Stairway to Heaven” in his song-by-song liner notes for the 1996 reissue of Spirit, but all he wrote was, “People always ask me why ‘Stairway to Heaven’ sounds exactly like ‘Taurus,’ which was released two years earlier. I know Led Zeppelin also played ‘Fresh-Garbage’ in their live set. They opened up for us on their first American tour.” He left it at that, but when asked directly about it in an interview with Jeff McLaughlin in _Listener_ shortly before his death, Randy California was much more direct, > > > [@](#): > > > > _ **Listener** _: Speaking of Led Zeppelin, the guitar introduction to your 1967 composition, “Taurus,” is a dead ringer for Zeppelin’s introduction to “Stairway to Heaven,” released in 1971. Did they ever acknowledge their artistic debt to you? They must of known “Taurus,” having performed as your warmup band. > > > > **California** : Well, if you listen to the two songs, you can make your own judgment. It’s an exact… I’d say it was a rip-off. And the guys made millions of bucks on it and never said, “Thank you,” never said, “Can we pay you some money for it?” It’s kind of a sore point with me. Maybe some day their conscience will make them do something about it. I don’t know. There are funny business dealings between record companies, managers, publishers, and artists. But when artists do it to other artists, there’s no excuse for that. I’m mad! [laughs] > > > > _ **Listener** _: Well, take comfort in the fact that you’re the true author of one of the most instantly recognizable guitar riffs in rock history. > > > > **California** : Yeah, right… > > Given the similarity between “Stairway to Heaven” and Randy California’s “Taurus”, Robert Plant’s lyrics “There’s a feeling I get when I look to the west/And my spirit is crying for leaving” take on a different meaning. Perhaps this is some sort of nod to Randy California, but Led Zeppelin never acknowledged their debt to Randy California. So … hmmm. Perhaps Randy California wasn’t especially interested in suing Led Zeppelin. But it doesn’t really look like he personally absolved Page, either. \*\*_Jeff McLaughlin, “Spirit’s Still Willing: A Conversation with Randy California,” Listener, Winter 1997, p. 51_ ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/36 "2016-04-13T17:15:04Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I expect LZ’s defence will be to find numerous other songs that also use a descending chromatic line and predate the Spirit tune. Also, you can look up [“lament bass”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lament_bass), as well as [the chromatic fourth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_fourth) (and also the “descending chromatic tetrachord”) and even [pianto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pianto) for many, many examples going back to even Renaissance music of the basic concept. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/37 "2016-04-13T17:22:43Z")
For example, here’s a song from [1564](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_yky5ZRHkE&nohtml5=False) that uses the chromatic descent in a minor key (which happens to be the same key as Stairway, too, A minor.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/38 "2016-04-13T19:31:29Z")
I’m a bit unsure what the standard is here. Is it the concept for a song or do they have to use a lot of another songs melody and chords? I’d agree Taurus must have sparked the idea for Stairway. But is that by itself infringement? I always felt Led Zeppelin wrote their own song. Stairway isn’t Taurus just changed up. The video linked earlier notes the differences in the melodies. They’re different songs from a similar concept. Zeppelin did a better job writing and structuring their song and thats why its one of the most iconic hits from the sixties. Taurus was released two years earlier and never achieved that level of success. That alone shows how the differences in the songs affects how people reacted to them. We’ll have to see what comes out at the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/39 "2016-04-13T20:29:29Z")
In my non-expert opinion I’d say they’re different enough that Zeppelin did not infringe up on Spirit’s work. They’re similar, no doubt, but not exactly the same. I’d be surprised if Zeppelin can’t successfully defend this. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/40 "2016-04-13T20:32:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > … one of the most iconic hits from the sixties. … Released 1971. FYI. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012.md?page=3)