# Judge clears 'Stairway to Heaven' copyright case for trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [April 12, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012 "2016-04-12T16:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/41 "2016-04-13T20:40:09Z")
True. But Led Zeppelin will always be identified as part of the psychedelic sixties music scene. Like Janis Joplin, Hendrix, Deep Purple and Cream. Some of that music spilled over into the early seventies but most people think of it as 60’s genre music. this web site for example includes early 70’s as part of the 60’s psychedelic music. > **[The 200 Greatest Psychedelic Albums - RYM/Sonemic](https://rateyourmusic.com/list/pauldrach/the_200_greatest_psychedelic_albums/)** > > The 200 Greatest Psychedelic Albums. Author: pauldrach. These are the 200 greatest psychedelic rock albums of the late '60s/early '70s, based on popularity, as well as influence/impact on psychedelic music and rock music in general. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/42 "2016-04-13T20:41:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > True. But Led Zeppelin will always be identified as part of the psychedelic sixties music scene. Like Janis Joplin, Hendrix, Deep Purple and Cream. Some of that music spilled over into the early seventies but most people think of it as 60’s genre music. Not me. Zep was a 70s band for me. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/43 "2016-04-13T21:43:09Z")
The only thing that’s really similar is the tempo, the initial chord and _a few notes_ of the bassline, then they diverge (or, actually, Taurus doesn’t, because that’s literally all there is to that song). There’s a whole other 7+ minutes of expansion and evolution in Stairway that doesn’t have anything to do with that opening riff at all. Let’s say Page heard it, began noodling with it, and not only significantly changed the riff but added a dozen more riffs to it – sorry, that’s a _different song_. If this is infringement, pretty much anybody who’s ever written anything on a guitar is guilty of infringing on something. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/44 "2016-04-13T21:53:16Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Not me. Zep was a 70s band for me. Yeah, I think of it as 70s music, as well. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/45 "2016-04-13T21:59:54Z")
> [@troub](#): > > The only thing that’s really similar is the tempo, the initial chord and _a few notes_ of the bassline, then they diverge (or, actually, Taurus doesn’t, because that’s literally all there is to that song). There’s a whole other 7+ minutes of expansion and evolution in Stairway that doesn’t have anything to do with that opening riff at all. > > Let’s say Page heard it, began noodling with it, and not only significantly changed the riff but added a dozen more riffs to it – sorry, that’s a _different song_. If this is infringement, pretty much anybody who’s ever written anything on a guitar is guilty of infringing on something. Heck, while we’re at it, why don’t we call the last section (“and as we wind on down the road…”) section a ripoff of “All Along the Watchtower”? It’s the same damn chords as Bob Dylan (Am - G - F - G) in not-quite-the-same rhythm, but similar enough that you can easily sing one song over the other. (To be clear, I’m _not_ saying we should call it a rip-off, but one could, if they really wanted to. Where’s the line?) ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/46 "2016-04-13T22:08:18Z")
I usually do not give Zep the benefit of the doubt on these things, but there was a lot added. Check out the original Dazed and Confused if you don’t know it already. This is beyond plagiarism. They took the entire song and called in their own. They may have improved it but still you can’t steal something cause you do it better. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1g7qFaWaLk) It’s by Jake Holmes, who later sang a million ads over the last 50 years. He actually wrote and sang “You can do it… in the army reserves” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/47 "2016-04-13T22:58:45Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > True. But Led Zeppelin will always be identified as part of the psychedelic sixties music scene. Like Janis Joplin, Hendrix, Deep Purple and Cream. Some of that music spilled over into the early seventies but most people think of it as 60’s genre music. If by “most people” you mean yourself, then sure. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/48 "2016-04-13T23:11:13Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I usually do not give Zep the benefit of the doubt on these things, but there was a lot added. > > Check out the original Dazed and Confused if you don’t know it already. This is beyond plagiarism. They took the entire song and called in their own. They may have improved it but still you can’t steal something cause you do it better. > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1g7qFaWaLk&nohtml5=False](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1g7qFaWaLk&nohtml5=False) > > It’s by Jake Holmes, who later sang a million ads over the last 50 years. He actually wrote and sang “You can do it… in the army reserves” Oh, definitely. Plenty of Led Zeppelin examples that go far beyond this Stairway-Taurus similarity. “Dazed and Confused” definitely falls into the “more than mere inspiration/riffing on an idea” side of the musical ledger to me. That’s pretty much a cover. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/49 "2016-04-13T23:17:10Z")
> [@troub](#): > > The only thing that’s really similar is the tempo, the initial chord and _a few notes_ of the bassline, then they diverge (or, actually, Taurus doesn’t, because that’s literally all there is to that song). There’s a whole other 7+ minutes of expansion and evolution in Stairway that doesn’t have anything to do with that opening riff at all. > > Let’s say Page heard it, began noodling with it, and not only significantly changed the riff but added a dozen more riffs to it – sorry, that’s a _different song_. If this is infringement, pretty much anybody who’s ever written anything on a guitar is guilty of infringing on something. That was my reaction too. I wish I’d stated it as well as you did. 🙂 Thats probably how Stairway got written too. Noodling is a songwriters best tool. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/50 "2016-04-14T00:03:33Z")
I’ve always thought that Coldplay’s [Clocks](http://youtu.be/5KkWGy7W3_o) sounded an awful lot like Bronski Beat’s [Small Town Boy](http://youtu.be/Xuz94ZIPfJk) and wondered why they were never taken to court. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/51 "2016-04-14T00:28:06Z")
It’s sometimes just not worth the hassle of suing someone. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/52 "2016-04-14T00:48:14Z")
Well, there’s that and the fact that they don’t really sound all that similar. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/53 "2016-04-16T19:13:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Just to be clear here, Led Zeppelin is not charged with “plagiarism.” They are charged with copyright infringement. Plagiarism is not a legal concept and it is much broader than copyright infringement. Yes, copyright infringement and not plagiarism. I’ve spent much of the week grading papers… ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/54 "2016-04-16T19:17:43Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, there’s that and the fact that they don’t really sound all that similar. I’m playing them both right now on the guitar, and it’s obvious that STH was built around the section stolen from the Taurus tune. But the truth is no match for millions of middle schoolers with a bustle in their hedgerow… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/55 "2016-04-16T19:22:59Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > I’m playing them both right now on the guitar, and it’s obvious that STH was built around the section stolen from the Taurus tune. > > But the truth is no match for millions of middle schoolers with a bustle in their hedgerow… Not that song. The one in post 50. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/56 "2016-04-16T19:26:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Not that song. The one in post 50. Got it, my bad. My second point remains. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/57 "2016-04-16T19:38:42Z")
Oh, I have little doubt that LZ were influenced by Taurus, whether consciously or not. As a sometimes musician, I think it’s not exactly a novel idea (I posted a work from the 1500s that has the same type of chromatic walk in a minor key–the whole idea even has a name, called the lament bass–and is found in renaissance and baroque music) and a sufficient reworking that it’s a very different song. By bar three, the chords aren’t even the same and the tonality is completely different (minor in Taurus, major in Stairway.) If that’s the bar for plagiarism, then practically every song out there is ripping some other one off. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/58 "2016-04-16T20:16:49Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I can see both sides of the argument, plus I suppose there’s a question of what constitutes plagiarism. If the Beach Boys’ wanted to make an issue of it, does “Back in The USSR” plagiarize the Beach Boys’ “California Girls” because of one short phrase? I doubt “Back in the USSR” ever was an issue for the Beach Boys. Paul McCartney began writing the song while the Beatles and the Beach Boys were attending a retreat in India. Mike Love encouraged McCartney to write the song in a similar style to “California Girls.” I’m sure the Beach Boys saw it more as being inspired than as infringing on their song. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/59 "2016-04-16T22:07:11Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I doubt “Back in the USSR” ever was an issue for the Beach Boys. Paul McCartney began writing the song while the Beatles and the Beach Boys were attending a retreat in India. Mike Love encouraged McCartney to write the song in a similar style to “California Girls.” I’m sure the Beach Boys saw it more as being inspired than as infringing on their song. Musical composition copyrights are indeed difficult—the question of what “original” exactly means isn’t very easy to pin down, and it’s not always easy to sort out what aspects of a composition is protectable and what portion is just the public domain arrangement of basic building blocks. (Sound recording copyrights are—comparatively—much easier … if you copied it, then you copied it.) However … whether or not the Beach Boys considered “Back in the U.S.S.R.” an “issue” isn’t necessarily a very important question. In theory, if “Back in the U.S.S.R.” is infringing, then it’s infringing whether or not the Beach Boys made it an “issue.” ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/60 "2016-04-16T23:00:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Musical composition copyrights are indeed difficult—the question of what “original” exactly means isn’t very easy to pin down, and it’s not always easy to sort out what aspects of a composition is protectable and what portion is just the public domain arrangement of basic building blocks. (Sound recording copyrights are—comparatively—much easier … if you copied it, then you copied it.) > > However … whether or not the Beach Boys considered “Back in the U.S.S.R.” an “issue” isn’t necessarily a very important question. In theory, if “Back in the U.S.S.R.” is infringing, then it’s infringing whether or not the Beach Boys made it an “issue.” What would the infringement consist of? It’s not copyrightable to list types of girls in sundry places. I think parody is protected anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012.md?page=4)