# Judge clears 'Stairway to Heaven' copyright case for trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [April 12, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012 "2016-04-12T16:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/81 "2016-06-16T22:33:21Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Ah, c’mon! You wouldn’t argue that Zep is one of the biggest 70’s bands? I took “owned” as a bit of fine Rock hyperbole 😉 Hey, I got your back - I think they [outsold everybody](http://www.superseventies.com/100bestsellingalbums.html) in the 1970’s ;). Though they certainly had some stiff competition. The Eagles doesn’t surprise me, but Pink Floyd kinda does. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/82 "2016-06-17T04:50:21Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > They toured with Spirit. “Taurus” was played. They were huge fans of west coast rock. “Never heard it” is ridiculous. Gotta agree. My thoughts about the merits of the case aside, there’s no possible way I could believe that Jimmy never heard “Taurus.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/83 "2016-06-17T05:21:54Z")
I read some time back that after a concert somewhere Page asked Randy California (nee Wolfe) to show him how to play it. It’s hard to believe, given that Page has the album, once toured with Spirit, and is said to have asked for instruction on how to play it by someone who was apparently there, that Page would try to play dumb on this. It’s also hard to believe that his lawyer never uncovered this incriminating information. Surely all this will come out and when it does it’s likely to cause considerable backlash from the jury. I hate to see this because even though I like all the guys in the band, Page is my favorite. He seems to have a great zest for life and to be a genuinely nice guy. It’s a shame that they stand to lose so much for a few notes that don’t make up 3% of the amazingly complex and cinematic song Page and Plant crafted around it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/84 "2016-06-17T06:08:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I read some time back that after a concert somewhere Page asked Randy California (nee Wolfe) to show him how to play it. It’s hard to believe, given that Page has the album, once toured with Spirit, and is said to have asked for instruction on how to play it by someone who was apparently there, that Page would try to play dumb on this. I think testimony stated like this is not going to help the plaintiff. Any competent session musician could play the first part of Taurus after hearing it a couple of times - it’s quite simple. Page is one of the greatest guitarists of all time. If he wanted to copy it, he certainly didn’t need Randy C to _show him_ how to play it. Maybe they were jamming together and playing it, that would sound more credible. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/85 "2016-06-17T06:22:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think testimony stated like this is not going to help the plaintiff. Any competent session musician could play the first part of Taurus after hearing it a couple of times - it’s quite simple. Page is one of the greatest guitarists of all time. If he wanted to copy it, he certainly didn’t need Randy C to _show him_ how to play it. Maybe they were jamming together and playing it, that would sound more credible. Agreed. Heck, I think one listen should be enough to get the main idea (minor chord on top, chromatically descending bassline.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/86 "2016-06-17T06:27:57Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think testimony stated like this is not going to help the plaintiff. Any competent session musician could play the first part of Taurus after hearing it a couple of times - it’s quite simple. Page is one of the greatest guitarists of all time. If he wanted to copy it, he certainly didn’t need Randy C to _show him_ how to play it. Maybe they were jamming together and playing it, that would sound more credible. I have to admit I wondered about that myself, albeit not for too long. I just figured that perhaps it was easier or took less time for Page to ask California to show him how to play it than to figure it out for himself. Or who knows, maybe Page was otherwise engaged and just heard bits and pieces while _Spirit_ were on stage so he asked about it afterward. Either way I never had any doubt that Page could have figured it out on his own pretty easily if he’d heard it clearly and that was what he wanted to do. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/87 "2016-06-17T06:36:20Z")
Something else just occurred to me too. As I said before Page seems to be a really nice guy, so maybe he wanted to pump California up a little bit by asking him how to play something. I’d think it would be quite a head-sweller for any guitarist to be asked by Jimmy Page how to play something. On the other hand California could have known that Page could have figured it out easily on his own, so really I’m just spit-balling here in search of a reason should the account I read be true. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/88 "2016-06-17T07:57:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Something else just occurred to me too. As I said before Page seems to be a really nice guy, so maybe he wanted to pump California up a little bit by asking him how to play something. I’d think it would be quite a head-sweller for any guitarist to be asked by Jimmy Page how to play something… But remember this was early on - LZ were _opening_ for the bigger band Spirit. So at the time, I assume Randy C would have been the senior figure, even if Page’s talent was probably already obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/89 "2016-06-17T08:27:25Z")
Thanks. I hadn’t realized _Spirit_ was ever a bigger band than _LZ_. But I wouldn’t have thought Page’s superior talent would have been obvious to just about any guitar player of the era. He’d been an in-demand session musician while still in his teens and had been a member of the _Yardbirds_. A pretty impressive resume I would think for a band of _Spirit’s_ relatively modest talents. Frankly I don’t see how any band member of the era wouldn’t have been blown away by any of _Zeppelin’s_ members. Every one of those guys was about as good as it can possibly get in their respective discipline. (In the studio anyway. Saw them live in August of '70 and much as I hate to say it, they sucked. Sloppy, careless and apparently just going through the motions, they robbed every song of its power and emotion…well, emotion, anyway. They were still powerful, but it lacked coherence.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/90 "2016-06-17T16:28:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I hate to see this because even though I like all the guys in the band, Page is my favorite. He seems to have a great zest for life and to be a genuinely nice guy. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As I said before Page seems to be a really nice guy, A really nice guy? He kidnapped and held captive a 14 year old girl and raped her repeatedly for years. He’s plagiarized dozens of other artists for years, stealing their ideas and their songs and making millions while denying them compensation or satisfaction. Jimmy Page is a fucking douchenozzle. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/91 "2016-06-17T18:00:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A really nice guy? He kidnapped and held captive a 14 year old girl and raped her repeatedly for years. Say what now?? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/92 "2016-06-17T18:05:04Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Say what now?? :eek: He’s talking about [Lori Maddox](http://www.stryder.de/rest/Groupie_Central_Lori_%20Maddox.html). It was a consensual affair, but she was way underage and legally incapable of consenting. She has admitted the LZ road manager kept her under ‘lock and key’. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/93 "2016-06-17T18:12:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But I wouldn’t have thought Page’s superior talent would have been obvious to just about any guitar player of the era. Randy California had been the teen protege of [Jimi Hendrix](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIhXMdf4cag) ( pretty apparent in this track ) - the only reason he didn’t go to England with him was his youth. With that kind of background I doubt he was particularly in awe of Page. Respectful, I’m sure, but probably not overwhelmed. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/94 "2016-06-17T18:13:43Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Say what now?? :eek: Ditto. I don’t mean to doubt you, **Snowboarder Bo** , but do you have a cite for that? It seems like he would be in prison or at least have stood trial if this were known to be a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/95 "2016-06-17T18:28:23Z")
How do you _really_ feel about Page, **Bo**? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/96 "2016-06-17T19:05:07Z")
Zep, partly because of their manager Peter Grant, were known as animals and thugs in the music industry. Not nice guys at all. It’s easier to be seen as nice when you’re a rich old rock god though. It would seem Plant was more the nice guy. He was just a kid at the time and has a lot of mixed feelings about it I think. I wonder if Randy California had known of the provenance of Dazed and Confused before he taught Jimmy Taurus. There’s a red warning light for you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/97 "2016-06-17T19:33:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A really nice guy? He kidnapped and held captive a 14 year old girl and raped her repeatedly for years. He’s plagiarized dozens of other artists for years, stealing their ideas and their songs and making millions while denying them compensation or satisfaction. > > Jimmy Page is a fucking douchenozzle. 14-year-old groupies were not unusual in those days. I would imagine if Page genuinely kidnapped Maddox and held her captive the law would have come into play at some point during those years they were together. From what little I’ve read he had their road manager pick her up and bring her to him at his hotel room, after which the sex was consensual. (She wasn’t a virgin at the time. Further, her first time was with David Bowie, who somehow doesn’t come in for the shrill ‘child rapist’ label that some like to pin on Jimmy Page.) She fell in love with him and the relationship lasted for some time. All this informed consent stuff, where people capable of driving cars, graduating high school and fighting wars (with parental okay to join the military at 17) are considered incapable of figuring out if it’s okay to have sex with someone is a recent development. And if Page actually did plagiarize ‘dozens’ of songs I’m fine with it, provided he made out of them the vastly superior and different type of song that _Stairway to Heaven_ is when compared to _Taurus_. From what I’ve been able to glean, Page is a friendly, open and approachable guy with a good sense of humor and a real passion for life. So yeah, I thought he was a nice guy before and I still do now. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/98 "2016-06-17T19:44:06Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Randy California had been the teen protege of [Jimi Hendrix](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIhXMdf4cag) ( pretty apparent in this track ) - the only reason he didn’t go to England with him was his youth. With that kind of background I doubt he was particularly in awe of Page. Respectful, I’m sure, but probably not overwhelmed. Interesting. I had no idea, thanks. I have to say though that my impression of California vs. Page consists mostly of having compared _Taurus_ with _Stairway to Heaven_, and the fact that _Spirit_ had only one hit, which to me was just a pretty standard and routine type of rock song of that era. I liked _I Got A Line On You_ very much but never thought of it as an artistically superior song. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/99 "2016-06-17T20:12:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I liked _I Got A Line On You_ very much but never thought of it as an artistically superior song. Courses for horses and all that, but the album [Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkd5JWYM9wM) in particular is a 1960’s classic IMHO. I find all of their 1960’s output fairly adventurous actually ( in the context of what had come before ). _I Got A Line On You_ was probably their most radio-friendly piece, but I certainly wouldn’t label them one-hit wonders. They didn’t lean particularly on California playing the guitar-hero, so he never really got a popular reputation as one, but he was pretty good for all of that. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012/100 "2016-06-17T20:28:33Z")
Wow, I hadn’t thought of that album in decades. I never knew it but I knew of it. This has been an interesting and educational thread. Thanks for your comments. And speaking of the tie-in between Hendrix and California upthread, there’s another guy Hendrix was high on who unfortunately died an early death, and that was Terry Kath of _Chicago_. I’ve read a couple different accounts of what Hendrix had to say about him, but on [terrykath.com](http://terrykath.com), Hendrix is said to have remarked to _Chicago’s_ saxophone player, \*“Your guitarist is better than me.” \* It’s nice to know that Hendrix, that widely acknowledged paragon of guitar-playing, was apparently humble in acknowledging the talents of other guitarists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-clears-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-case-for-trial/752012.md?page=6)