# Judge cries when sentencing Mormon bishop to prision for rape **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 16, 2017, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551 "2017-04-16T10:57:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/81 "2017-04-19T19:36:49Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > So, shame on his victims for not forgiving their rapist, got it. Yep, that seems to be what some are saying. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/82 "2017-04-20T12:10:52Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Kir **t** land. It’s Kirtland. (Exmo from Ohio checking in – I hate it when people call Kirtland “Kirkland.”) I don’t know where that “k” came from. I say it with a “t.” For non-Mormons (and I suppose Mormons who aren’t familiar with church history) Kirtland was a transition from early the earliest, relatively disorganized Mormonism with Joseph Smith as the first among equals, into what became a complex hierarchy with the prophet sitting firmly on top, speaking directly to God; and more importantly silencing other channels while squashing other possible claims to diversity of opinion. > [@](#): > > Anyway, just weighing in to share my experience with rape and mormons. I was molested when I was 15 by my 30-year-old stepbrother. He was excommunicated but I also was put through a Bishop’s Court and subsequently punished. For letting myself get raped. I was put on probation, which amounted to a public shunning, for nearly a year. My “sentence” was six months, but the bishop forgot to reinstate me. When I asked him about it, he told me I had to repent. For being raped. You’ve shared this before, but I still have a hard time with how fucked up that was and how much that must have hurt. (As an explanation for others.) The bishop can excommunicate, disfellow, or place someone on probation, and then that person cannot take the sacrament which is passed around to everyone. People know and talk about who doesn’t take it. Sexual “transgressions” and apostasy are the two main reasons for that. Fifteen year old girls aren’t hot beds of activism so that leaves one thing. Mormonism, like other fundamentalist religions) has (IMHO) an extremely unhealthy view of human sexuality and a really fucked up ranking of sin. Consenting sex between unmarried adults is technically a greater sin than the more serious charge this bishop was convicted of, object rape of a minor. > [@](#): > > This happened back in the 80s, so Spencer W. Kimball was the prophet and the “protect your virtue or die trying because you are otherwise worthless” was pretty much the message we heard in every single meeting. I would also like to note that Elizabeth Smart’s bishop publicly forgave her on CNN. I was infuriated. Not because she was forgiven but because there is obviously no consistency wrt how rape/abuse is treated in the mormon church. One bishop says on CNN that you’re still pure in the eyes of god and another one tells you to repent behind closed doors. Again, that really really sucks. Unfortunately I know other girls who have similar stories as yours. My uncle would not allow the police to become involved when my cousin was stranger-raped at gunpoint. She was 14 or so and this would have been about 1980. The uncle was afraid of the bishop’s reactions and if a similar punishment would have been imposed because she didn’t attempt to resist. Another uncle molested another girl from that family and she didn’t even bother to tell her family about it. How sad it is that 16-year-old girls doesn’t dare report things to their families because of potential retribution from the church. One of my main gripes about the church is that it bills itself as the sole representative of God on Earth, and with a direct pipeline to the Lord. That they and they alone speak for God, and that is the single most important reason for people to believe and follow them. So the church could provide divine guidance concerning these things, yet they reserve said guidance for things such as official proclamations that the girls should die first. Because they never want to undermine their authority, they refuse to renounce these former proclamations, rather they fade away – sort of. Any bishop at any time can rely on them for guidance. > [@](#): > > I am never surprised when I read about things like this, or the honor code issue at BYU. It’s systemic and also rape is pretty much advocated in the bible and even if you think that interpretation is a stretch, it’s also not explicitly mentioned as a sin so… I don’t look to any religion for handling matters of justice and the law, but Utah, apparently, has other ideas about that. I really believe that Mormonism does foster a rape culture. Hopefully, outside pressure will cause it to change, but it’s far too toxic for me and my children. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/83 "2017-04-20T13:13:59Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I really believe that Mormonism does foster a rape culture. Hopefully, outside pressure will cause it to change, but it’s far too toxic for me and my children. Do you think it’s really unique in that sense? I’d think any patriarchal social structure is in capable of creating the same situation. With great power comes great ability to do harm. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/84 "2017-04-20T13:38:35Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > …and then that person cannot take the sacrament which is passed around to everyone. People know and talk about who doesn’t take it. They evidently have a lot of time on their hands. [To be sure, all the auld wives in a 19th century Scottish village would chunter away about scandalous people non-stop; however they would also be demanding condign punishment for anyone raping a woman, let alone a wean. Nor would they blame the girl, unless she was a forward piece, of whom they were probably jealous.] ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/85 "2017-04-20T14:24:56Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > They evidently have a lot of time on their hands. > > [To be sure, all the auld wives in a 19th century Scottish village would chunter away about scandalous people non-stop; however they would also be demanding condign punishment for anyone raping a woman, let alone a wean. Nor would they blame the girl, unless she was a forward piece, of whom they were probably jealous.] It’s not so much too much time on their hands. Mormons are notorious for manufacturing busy work; it’s inculcated throughout the culture. Here is [BYU’s Honor Code](https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26). Now, I did not go to BYU (because after the abuse + punishment fiasco, I wasn’t having it. I wanted nothing to do with that place.), but my understanding is that students are expected to report Honor Code violations on each other. There is this cultural idea that, if you don’t report your observations of someone breaking the rules, then you are just as complicit in that sin. I never told anyone what happened to me (because I knew what they’d do to me); my situation was reported. I was completely blindsided one day when I was pulled into the Bishop’s office and confronted with it – and was basically forced to confess. Mormonism is so spiritually bereft of any substance at all that mormons run around ratting each other out, not just at BYU. The control over others’ behavior starts from the top down. It becomes the Olympics of putting on a good show so that nobody has any idea who anyone else really is or what actually goes on behind closed doors. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/86 "2017-04-20T14:56:10Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > We had several in our family, including one who had 22 children. There’s a huge family organization and many, many distant cousins. No Mormon royalty – no Smiths, Youngs, Kimballs, Et al, so no clout or privileges. > > Father’s side was too poor to be polygamous. Dirt farmers of central Utah. G-g-g-g mother lost her legs on the fated Willie and Martin handcart companies and still raised a bunch of kids. [Mormon handcart pioneers - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_handcart_pioneers#1856:_Willie_and_Martin_handcart_companies) > > Old time Mormonism was really different than the packaging they started in the 70s and 80s but I grew up with very traditional Mormon parents who were both raised on farms in little communities of Mormons and no one else. > > We grew up waiting for the Second Coming, with polygamy right around the corner, as well as knowing that Blacks were second class citizens because of their lackluster performance in the Preexistance. Ha! It’s very possible we are cousins (or siblings, LOL). We weren’t Mormon royalty either – my line were Southern Utah dirt farmers and poorer than dirt. My gr-gr grandma came across the plains with a handcart company, her baby brother died of diphtheria on the way. Much agreement on “old style” Mormonism. I, too, grew up with the racial prejudice. If I remember correctly, the Church had a sudden and handy prophecy that Af-Ams were no longer the children of Ham when the ACLU filed a lawsuit in the '70s. I was also perpetually terrified that the Second Coming would happen any day. Last summer I went to the public opening of the new Philly Temple; the presentations were very slick and, as you write, “repackaged.” It kind of gave me the heebie jeebies to go (there’s always the chance I’ll be trapped and _officially_ excommunicated :D), but the Temple is gorgeous, must have cost a zillion dollars – I’m sure my impoverished grandparents who tithed faithfully and went on two missions would have been delighted. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/87 "2017-04-20T15:24:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > By the FBI definition a case that is cleared because there is insufficient evidence is Administratively Cleared. A case that there is sufficient evidence for arrest and the suspect is known but there is some other reason (like he’s dead) to not go forward is Exceptionally Cleared. If there is enough evidence and an arrest it’s Closed By Arrest. > > Unfounded means it didn’t happen. North of the border things might be different. > > Since each department in the country has to turn in Uniform Crime Reporting statistics to the Feds the same language is universal. > > Having dealt with the subject as a SVU detective for five years I have no problem stating that the vast majority of rape allegations are not false regardless of if there is enough evidence to go forward. I am certainly not willing to put a number on the amount of false reports. I will say that it would be difficult to determine since in my experience a large number of false reports fall apart before they even become formal allegations. I do remember digging out some reports on it for a discussion once. I found the average rate of false accusations through them to be about 8 %. I expect there would be large local variations. That would mean that 92 % are true. What is more, I expect there is a large amount of rapes that never get reported, whereas the number of unreported false criminal accusations is by definition 0. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/88 "2017-04-20T16:04:40Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Do you think it’s really unique in that sense? I’d think any patriarchal social structure is in capable of creating the same situation. With great power comes great ability to do harm. It’s not unique historically but I do wonder how many religious groups in the US in 2017 are at same level (or possibly worse). Certainly most mainstream Christian churches lack the same degree of authoritarian control over their members. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/89 "2017-04-20T17:00:55Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Certainly most mainstream Christian churches lack the same degree of authoritarian control over their members. Better perhaps to ask which religious groups _do_ retain such control. Then ask if they have similar issues in their communities. I’d have to say that list of groups would include: Jehovah’s Witnesses Scientology some of the Orthodox Jewish groups some of the very conservative muslim groups ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/90 "2017-04-20T18:00:17Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It’s not unique historically but I do wonder how many religious groups in the US in 2017 are at same level (or possibly worse). > > Certainly most mainstream Christian churches lack the same degree of authoritarian control over their members. Utah Mormonism is incredibly cultish and it saturates pretty much the entire culture. It’s difficult to describe the level of repression/oppression/sheer weirdness of growing up there to outsiders. On the BYU Honor Code: BYU security used to cruise the parking lots of the gay bars in SLC and note down University parking permits/license plate numbers. This was the '80s, I can’t say for certain they still do this but I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/91 "2017-04-20T19:53:22Z")
Justice must not only be done; it must be _seen_ to be done. A Judge using such loaded, non-neutral terms raises in my mind at least a “reasonable apprehension of bias”. I have no idea if _objectively_ the actual sentence he handed down is less than that handed down for similar crimes - but that isn’t really the test; one typically does not have to prove _actual bias_ which has lead to an unfair result, but rather only a “reasonable apprehension” of bias, in the eyes of the hypothetical reasonable person. Thus, in my opinion at least, the judge out to have recused himself - even if it could be demonstrated that the sentence he handed down was fair and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/92 "2017-04-21T01:06:12Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Here is [BYU’s Honor Code](https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26). Now, I did not go to BYU (because after the abuse + punishment fiasco, I wasn’t having it. I wanted nothing to do with that place.), **but my understanding is that students are expected to report Honor Code violations on each other.** There is this cultural idea that, if you don’t report your observations of someone breaking the rules, then you are just as complicit in that sin. **I never told anyone what happened to me (because I knew what they’d do to me); my situation was reported. I was completely blindsided one day when I was pulled into the Bishop’s office and confronted with it – and was basically forced to confess.** Suddenly the joke about why you only take two (as opposed to one) Mormon buddies along when you go fishing is a lot less funny… ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/93 "2017-04-21T01:54:04Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Better perhaps to ask which religious groups _do_ retain such control. Then ask if they have similar issues in their communities. > > I’d have to say that list of groups would include: > {snipped} > …some of the very conservative muslim groups I’ve been poring through this thread to see if someone else posted the same idea before me: The description of Mormon/LDS attitude/policy about men being essentially blameless for failing to control their lust strikes me as astoundingly similar to descriptions of Islamic cultures. In the 1990’s one 20/20 reporter described the burkas as ‘walking telephone booth’ garments and, in his feature was told via interpreter that the culture considered them necessary to protect the women because men can’t be expected to control themselves if they see the women’s beauty. Wow, really? So in these two (admittedly extreme) variants of monotheism, men aren’t expected to take responsibility for their lust so women have to do so. I wonder if there’s an extreme variant of Judaism that is similar – RivkaChaya, care to weigh in? That would make each branch have a similar extreme practice. –G! ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/94 "2017-04-21T09:51:13Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I do remember digging out some reports on it for a discussion once. I found the average rate of false accusations through them to be about 8 %. I expect there would be large local variations. > > That would mean that 92 % are true. What is more, I expect there is a large amount of rapes that never get reported, whereas the number of unreported false criminal accusations is by definition 0. False/malicious accusations aren’t cancelled out by those of us who didn’t make a police report. That number isn’t zero. But I suspect that too many reports just aren’t lodged, because the victim is aware that his/her own sexual history, manner of dress, etc will be on trial as much as the actual crime. (I hope that has changed, but this was my experience in 1988.) In the current case under discussion, I’m appalled. The judge should have recused himself. And the victims deserve better. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551/95 "2017-04-23T15:07:54Z")
If the judge was not biased, he would not feel bad about putting someone who has been proven to be a rapist behind bars. The fact that he feels so bad he’s crying is a huge problem. That he tries to leave room that he didn’t really do it is an even bigger problem. It doesn’t matter whether he’s following the laws of the land. So was that one judge who got kicked out for giving a rapist 6 months and saying he’s fundamentally a good guy. If you are shown to be sympathetic to rapists, it inherently questions your ability to actually do the job. Even if you followed the guidelines, people can say you should have chosen the high end. They can say that the sentences should not have been concurrent. They can say that he should have recommended he not get parole. There’s just so much that happens when you are perceived to be soft on rape. \*\*The mere appearance of impropriety is enough that you should recuse. \*\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-cries-when-sentencing-mormon-bishop-to-prision-for-rape/784551.md?page=4)