# Judge hammers ID creationists - Calls school board liars!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [December 20, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461 "2005-12-20T16:07:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/1 "2005-12-20T16:07:08Z")
[Judge rules against ‘intelligent design’](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/)
[The ruling (pdf file)](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/051220_kitzmiller_342.pdf)
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/2 "2005-12-20T16:09:27Z")
IMHO this is a great victory for American education!
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/3 "2005-12-20T16:18:04Z")
This is apparently already being hashed over in GD in a longer thread. Would a passing mod please close this one.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/4 "2005-12-20T16:22:16Z")
That’s a very well-written opinion.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/5 "2005-12-20T16:31:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> That’s a very well-written opinion.
I am stunned by how explicit the Judge was. There was no pussy footing in his wording.
> [@](#):
>
> H. Conclusion
> The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts
> of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the
> Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the
> seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and
> moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious,
> antecedents.
> Both Defendants and many of the leading proponents of ID make a bedrock
> assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory
> is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in
> general. Repeatedly in this trial, Plaintiffs’ scientific experts testified that the
> theory of evolution represents good science, is overwhelmingly accepted by the
> scientific community, and that it in no way conflicts with, nor does it deny, the
> existence of a divine creator.
> To be sure, Darwin’s theory of evolution is imperfect. However, the fact
> Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 136 of 139
>
> 137
> that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not
> be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis grounded in
> religion into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific
> propositions.
> The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the
> Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals,
> who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would
> time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID
> Policy.
> With that said, we do not question that many of the leading advocates of ID
> have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors. Nor
> do we controvert that ID should continue to be studied, debated, and discussed. As
> stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an
> alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.
> Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an
> activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court.
> Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction
> on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a
> constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the Board to adopt an
> Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 137 of 139
>
> 138
> imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity of the
> Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which
> has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers
> of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal
> maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources.
> To preserve the separation of church and state mandated by the
> Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution,
> and Art. I, § 3 of the Pennsylvania Constitution, we will enter an order
> permanently enjoining Defendants from maintaining the ID Policy in any school
> within the Dover Area School District, from requiring teachers to denigrate or
> disparage the scientific theory of evolution, and from requiring teachers to refer to
> a religious, alternative theory known as ID. We will also issue a declaratory
> judgment that Plaintiffs’ rights under the Constitutions of the United States and the
> Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have been violated by Defendants’ actions.
> Defendants’ actions in violation of Plaintiffs’ civil rights as guaranteed to them by
> the Constitution of the United States and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 subject Defendants to
> liability with respect to injunctive and declaratory relief, but also for nominal
> damages and the reasonable value of Plaintiffs’ attorneys’ services and costs
> incurred in vindicating Plaintiffs’ constitutional rights.
> Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 138 of 139
>
> 139
> NOW, THEREFORE, IT IS ORDERED THAT:
>
> 1. A declaratory judgment is hereby issued in favor of Plaintiffs pursuant
> to 28 U.S.C. §§ 2201, 2202, and 42 U.S.C. § 1983 such that
> Defendants’ ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause of the First
> Amendment of the Constitution of the United States and Art. I, § 3 of
> the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
> 2. Pursuant to Fed.R.Civ.P. 65, Defendants are permanently enjoined
> from maintaining the ID Policy in any school within the Dover Area
> School District.
> 3. Because Plaintiffs seek nominal damages, Plaintiffs shall file with the
> Court and serve on Defendants, their claim for damages and a verified
> statement of any fees and/or costs to which they claim entitlement.
> Defendants shall have the right to object to any such fees and costs to
> the extent provided in the applicable statutes and court rules.
> s/John E. Jones III
> John E. Jones III
> United States District Judge
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### Author:  [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/6 "2005-12-20T16:34:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The **breathtaking inanity of the
> Board’s decision** is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which
> has now been fully revealed through this trial.
Day-um!
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### Author:  [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/7 "2005-12-20T17:16:01Z")
I’m doing a happy dance in my computer chair right now.
Favorite quote from the article:
“We conclude that the religious nature of ID would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child," Jones said.
That just about says it.
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### Author:  [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/8 "2005-12-20T17:37:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> It is ironic that several of these individuals,
> who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would
> time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.
Holy cow!
> [@](#):
>
> As
> stated, our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an
> alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom.
Yes!!
What effect will this ruling have in other cases?
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### Author:  [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/9 "2005-12-20T17:59:32Z")
Here’s another excerpt from the decision:
> [@](#):
>
> Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously
> argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making
> students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’
> testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be
> discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about
> ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree.
---
### Author:  [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/10 "2005-12-20T18:04:46Z")
And there’s more…
> [@](#):
>
> In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special
> treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to
> doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious
> alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist
> text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific
> inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction
> elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/11 "2005-12-20T18:16:13Z")
Judges really really don’t like being lied to.
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### Author:  [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/12 "2005-12-20T18:40:45Z")
An interesting tidbit from the CNN website:
> [@](#):
>
> Jones – an appointee of President Bush, who backs the teaching of Intelligent Design – defended his decision in personal terms.
>
> “Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist court,” Jones writes.
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### Author:  [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/13 "2005-12-20T18:41:59Z")
Darnit. I didn’t get the whole quote.
> [@](#):
>
> Jones – an appointee of President Bush, who backs the teaching of Intelligent Design – defended his decision in personal terms.
>
> “Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist court,” Jones writes.
>
> “Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on intelligent design, who in combination drove the board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy,” he said.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/14 "2005-12-20T18:43:57Z")
> [@astro](#):
>
> IMHO this is a great victory for American education!
Personally, I think this is a great tragedy for the American community of Flying Spaghetti Monsterists! ☹
😃
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### Author:  [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/15 "2005-12-20T18:45:17Z")
A victory of intelligence over Intelligent Design.
A wow, such strong language from a judge! I like the way he summed things up. I should bookmark that ruling for the next time I get prosyletized by a creationist.
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/16 "2005-12-20T18:45:30Z")
Yay. Just - yay.
It is one small step for clear-headed thinking and calling of bullshit in what will be a never-ending battle that in this day and age seems to move inexorably in favor of the opposition.
But all the same - yay.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/17 "2005-12-20T18:53:11Z")
> [@WordMan](#):
>
> what will be a never-ending battle that in this day and age seems to move inexorably in favor of the opposition.
I seem to remember the same thing being said by [Jules Feiffer, decades ago](http://www.julesfeiffer.com/index2.html). He had a disillusioned salaryman, morning all the good causes that failed, among them civil rights of blacks and feminists. The overall tone was that nothing really changes. However, we know see that the side that does not let up does succeed.
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/18 "2005-12-20T19:08:43Z")
I absolutely _love_ the “breathtaking inanity” line. What an awesome smackdown.
And good for President Bush for appointing this guy. Judge Jones is going to get reamed by a lot of the people in his party, and he knows it, but he still put the partisan politics aside. Good choice by Bush, you gotta give him some credit.
Eww, that felt weird to type… 😉
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/19 "2005-12-20T19:26:29Z")
Oh, I almost forgot.
_Scott does the Snoopy Happy Dance_
Link to a [del]Hamsterdance[/del][Snoopy Dance page](http://www.darkharbor.com/snoopydance/)
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### Author:  [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)
#### Post date: [December 20, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-hammers-id-creationists-calls-school-board-liars/336461/20 "2005-12-20T19:32:13Z")
What’s Latin for “pwn3d!”? 😃
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