# Judge: Names of attackers confidential. You talk about it anyway. Free speech or contempt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121 "2012-07-23T12:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/82 "2012-07-25T02:17:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Notoriously, a lot of teenagers are idiots. I don’t think that having done that when they were 17 should still stick to them when they’ll be 40. If they’re stupid enough to take pics of their crime and distribute them, the stupid is gonna stick. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/83 "2012-07-25T02:24:14Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > According to the story link in the OP, the proceedings aren’t over yet. the guys haven’t been sentenced yet. OTOH, it may well be that _her_ part in the proceedings is over – dunno if that make any difference or not legally. Ah…that may, and I’m pretty certain it is, be a key point. She didn’t wait long enough… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/84 "2012-07-25T03:11:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Notoriously, a lot of teenagers are idiots. I don’t think that having done that when they were 17 should still stick to them when they’ll be 40. What about when they’re 22 and apply to medical school or 18 and apply for college? Unless their parents are extremely wealthy they’re going to be asking the rest of society to trust them enough to subsidize years of expensive education. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/85 "2012-07-25T03:45:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Notoriously, a lot of teenagers are idiots. I don’t think that having done that when they were 17 should still stick to them when they’ll be 40. Where do you draw a line? I am willing to bet you know (or can point to) people in their 40’s who are idiots. Any line we draw will be arbitrary. That said my feeling is that while yes, teenagers are notorious for their idiocy some things, such as rape, they should be held accountable for. I think back to the moron I was when I was 17 and shake my head in amazement but even at 17 I was crystal clear on why you do not rape (or sexually assault or even any kind of assault) women (or anyone for that matter). I absolutely knew right from wrong on this and I do not think I was somehow blessed with amazing intellect or enlightenment that few other 17 year olds possessed. To be fair I still did a lot of things I knew to be wrong for any of a variety of reasons but even so some things were beyond the pale and rape easily fits in there. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/86 "2012-07-25T03:50:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Notoriously, a lot of teenagers are idiots. I don’t think that having done that when they were 17 should still stick to them when they’ll be 40. This isn’t a case of throwing an unapproved party or taking the family car without asking. It’s not asking too much of our youth to expect them to not sexually assault other members of society and I see no reason why they shouldn’t have it stick as long as possible. If a sense of decency can’t compel people to behave then maybe shame will. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/87 "2012-07-25T04:01:37Z")
Yes, teens are idiots. Especially teen boys. This is why you need to tell them NOW they’re being idiots and let them know you’re very serious so they don’t turn into idiot adults. ---
**Author:** ![Napkin\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Napkin\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napkin_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/88 "2012-07-25T07:03:27Z")
The girl was stripped while unconscious and they took photos of her naked and distributed them on the internet. That’s the kind of thing that will stay with her for the rest of her life. So why shouldn’t it likewise stick to them too? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/89 "2012-07-25T11:10:58Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > This isn’t a case of throwing an unapproved party or taking the family car without asking. It’s not asking too much of our youth to expect them to not sexually assault other members of society and I see no reason why they shouldn’t have it stick as long as possible. If a sense of decency can’t compel people to behave then maybe shame will. I’m picking your post to answer, amongst many disagreeing with my statement. It’s not about the youth. It’s about the man 20 years later who is unlikely to have the same mentality/views/personality/behavior than the teenager he once was. I think he has a right to his teenage self’s actions being put definitely behind him by society. Also, I can see a 17 years old seeing undressing a girl and taking pictures more as a fun prank than as an awful crime. Even though there’s going to be exceptions, a 47 years old is likely to have more sense than that, if only a sense of the consequences this action will entail. A third thing : if we are to assume a teenager should be held to the same standards an adult is, then why bother with juvenile courts? And while we’re at it, why wouldn’t they be able to drink, drive, vote, etc…? Either they’re exactly like adults or they aren’t. You can’t have it both way. If they’re responsible enough to suffer the same consequences for their actions (like being branded for life as sex offender), surely they’re responsible enough to benefit from the same rights too, like being elected as senator. Or to not require special protection (like statutory rape laws or work regulations). If you think they should know better at 17 and as a result should suffer lifelong consequences for their actions, then lower the age of majority to whatever age you think kids can’t be really expected to know better. Say, give 12 yo the right to vote, to have consensual sex, to work for a living…and then only give them life sentences when they commit a crime. Rights don’t come without responsibilities, but the reverse is true : responsibilities don’t come without rights. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/90 "2012-07-25T11:20:09Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I think he has a right to his teenage self’s actions being put definitely behind him by society. By the victim as well? I’m fine with configuring the system so that society forgives, I’m not fine with requiring he same of the victim. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/91 "2012-07-25T11:30:07Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > By the victim as well? > > I’m fine with configuring the system so that society forgives, I’m not fine with requiring he same of the victim. Nope. Everybody is entitled to his feelings. Not only the victim but also other people who might be aware of the crime. I’ve no issue with someone saying “I will never trust someone who commited such a crime, even if they were 15 at the time, even it it was 30 years ago”. I just don’t want people at large being told “this man commited a crime 30 years ago” each time he’s inteviewed for a job or move to a new place, for instance. Anyway, you can hardly make people forgive by passing a law. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/92 "2012-07-25T12:02:49Z")
> [@Napkin\_Sandwich](#): > > The girl was stripped while unconscious and they took photos of her naked and distributed them on the internet. > > That’s the kind of thing that will stay with her for the rest of her life. So why shouldn’t it likewise stick to them too? The entire point of punishment is to prevent someone from doing something again. If the results are the same whether he learns from his mistake or doesn’t, where’s the motivation not to do it again? And that’s not even getting into the idea that teenagers have been scientifically proven to think differently than adults, to be unable to comprehend the consequences for their actions. This is just dealing with adults, and how we punish sexual offenders for life, never rewarding them for actually reforming. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/93 "2012-07-25T12:16:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The entire point of punishment is to prevent someone from doing something again. If the results are the same whether he learns from his mistake or doesn’t, where’s the motivation not to do it again? Wrong. It is also to prevent someone doing it in the first place, because they don’t want to suffer the same fate. Hell, some people were arguing for this as a reason why the girl should be punished for defying an unethical order - that even though she did nothing wrong, they could make an example of her to stop others thinking it’s sometimes okay to defy a court order. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/94 "2012-07-25T12:58:00Z")
I think the boys are scum and need to have an enduring lesson taught to them. Of course, I’m also going to marvel at how much more punishment they get than those two girls who forcibly stripped that young boy a while back and posted it on YouTube. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/95 "2012-07-25T13:12:12Z")
She said she wasn’t aware of the plea deal until just before the sentence was handed out. I thought the prosecution gets a say in the plea deal? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/96 "2012-07-25T13:20:25Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > She said she wasn’t aware of the plea deal until just before the sentence was handed out. I thought the prosecution gets a say in the plea deal? The victim is not part of the prosecution. The victim is at best a witness. Involving the victim in plea negotiations is a sometimes a tactic to keep the victim cooperative, sometimes a courtesy, and sometimes a PR tactic to keep the public happy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/97 "2012-07-25T13:25:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The entire point of punishment is to prevent someone from doing something again. If the results are the same whether he learns from his mistake or doesn’t, where’s the motivation not to do it again? > > And that’s not even getting into the idea that teenagers have been scientifically proven to think differently than adults, to be unable to comprehend the consequences for their actions. This is just dealing with adults, and how we punish sexual offenders for life, never rewarding them for actually reforming. So how do we deal with the unfairness of the consequences of the perp’s act sticking with the victim for life, but oh, let’s let the perps off so they can learn from it? Are we indifferent to the suffering of the victim? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/98 "2012-07-25T13:44:46Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, I am confused. because the articles I’ve scene say she may be held in contempt for identifying her attackers, giving their names. Yet your post suggests she was not allowed to speak about details that were revealed in the hearing, like such things as the proposed plea agreement. Which is it? > > Would it matter if, for instance, she knew these guys and their names from outside of court, as kids in the same class or school or neighborhood? In that case she would be talking about information she had from outside the hearing. I understand she could conceivable be sued for libel and/or slander, though it would seem as if their acceptance of “responsibility” would pretty much negate that danger. Your understanding of the news was correct. My post was opining that the judge’s order went too far – that, consistent with the First Amendment, he could not order silence on the details of the attackers or the crime, but could on the details of the hearing and sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/99 "2012-07-25T13:47:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It’s not about the youth. It’s about the man 20 years later who is unlikely to have the same mentality/views/personality/behavior than the teenager he once was. I think he has a right to his teenage self’s actions being put definitely behind him by society. I repeat, they should have thought about their futures before they started undressing her. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/100 "2012-07-25T16:41:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The entire point of punishment is to prevent someone from doing something again. If the results are the same whether he learns from his mistake or doesn’t, where’s the motivation not to do it again? In a sane society (in which they would have been appropriately punished for this crime), the motivation is “_this_ time, you’ll eventually get out of prison – do it again, and the only way you’ll ever leave is in a box (slightly smaller than the one you’ll be living in)”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121/101 "2012-07-25T16:43:37Z")
> [@Napkin\_Sandwich](#): > > The girl was stripped while unconscious and they took photos of her naked and distributed them on the internet. > > That’s the kind of thing that will stay with her for the rest of her life. So why shouldn’t it likewise stick to them too? Because they’re minors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-names-of-attackers-confidential-you-talk-about-it-anyway-free-speech-or-contempt/629121.md?page=6)