# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/241 "2017-06-27T14:30:16Z")
Without reading the entire thread, it seems entirely reasonable to me that a baker should be able to refuse to bake a certain design or text on their cake (whether “Trump sucks” or “Trump is great” or “happy gay marriage!” or “happy Christian marriage”), for any reason whatsoever, but shouldn’t be able to refuse to serve any customers based on their race, sexual identity/orientation, religion, etc. So a baker should be able to say “I won’t write “happy gay marriage” on your cake”, but they still have to serve a gay customer, including make an (unmarked) wedding cake for them. IANAL, and this is just my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/242 "2017-06-27T14:33:29Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Again, a clear difference in that the bakery can state that they will not use the Aryan Nation symbol on any cake where I’m not sure what the difference in wedding cakes would be between an opposite sex marriage and a same sex one. Perhaps the cake topper? I could see not requiring a baker to stock a cake topper showing a couple of the same sex but I can’t see why he couldn’t bake a cake to allow for a topper to be placed after delivery. > > Can you detail the difference between cakes of a same sex marriage vs an opposite sex marriage? A brief search of google images shows cakes that are not materially different from any cake I’ve seen at an opposite sex wedding. My understanding is that there are bakeries that have “standard” wedding cakes, and then places like [Charm City Cakes](http://www.charmcitycakes.com/about-us), featured on Food Network’s “Ace of Cakes,” show, who say: > [@](#): > > We don’t make cakes – we make dreams come true! If you’ve never watched similar shows, they create customized, one-of-a-kind cakes that involve artistic imagery writ in fondant and icing. If you want to have a Girl With the Dragon Tattoo themed wedding, you engage a cake artist and they create [something like this.](http://bestweddingproducts.com/wedding-ideas/dragon-wedding-cake/the-girl-with-the-dragon-wedding-cake-tales-from-the-cake-cave/) Do you understand the difference? It’s not simply choosing design 5C on page 12. It’s creating an artistic theme from scratch, never seen before and not used again. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/243 "2017-06-27T14:34:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Suppose an African-American cake artist refused to create a cake symbolizing white-supremacism (in a positive way) for the Aryan Nation? Or a an Islamic cake artist refused to create a cake denigrating the Quran for the Westboro Baptist Church?\*\* Or a secular cake artist refused to create cakes opposing same-sex marriage requested by a Christian patron?\*\* > > And then suppose that the state commission was presented with complaints about each but refused to apply the state anti-discrimination act to order them to complete the work. > > If those suppositions were true, could it be possible that a cake artist might have some sort of legitimate gripe at being ordered to produce an original cake design celebrating a same-sex marriage when he is religiously opposed to it? **bolding** mine I knew this sounded like a **Bricker** gotcha. Like [this case](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/01/20/azucar-bakery-anti-gay-words-cake/22061115/) where another Colorado bakery refused to produce Bible shaped cakes with anti-gay Bible verses and/or designs. And the state Civil Rights division of the Department of Regulatory Agencies investigated but [refused to take action](http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denvers-azucar-bakery-wins-right-to-refuse-to-make-anti-gay-cake) against the baker. Sounds like a 14th Amendment unequal protection argument to throw into the mix. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/244 "2017-06-27T14:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Without reading the entire thread, it seems entirely reasonable to me that a baker should be able to refuse to bake a certain design or text on their cake (whether “Trump sucks” or “Trump is great” or “happy gay marriage!” or “happy Christian marriage”), for any reason whatsoever, but shouldn’t be able to refuse to serve any customers based on their race, sexual identity/orientation, religion, etc. So a baker should be able to say “I won’t write “happy gay marriage” on your cake”, but they still have to serve a gay customer, including make an (unmarked) wedding cake for them. Yes. This seems quite reasonable to me. “Sell me that cake you’re offering to sell anyone else,” is a reasonable request. “Create one-of-a-kind art that advances my position you disagree with,” is not. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/245 "2017-06-27T14:38:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To answer the question, CRS 24-34-601(2)(a) provides in pertinent part that it is a discriminatory practice and unlawful > > > [@](#): > > > > :. . .that an individual’s patronage or presence at a place of public accommodation is unwelcome, objectionable, unacceptable, or undesirable because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry. I’m not seeing how that applies to the Westboro case, unless the baker would agree to produce an anti-Quran cake for people other than Westboro. Assuming the secular cakist refuses to produce a cake for a Christian explicitly because (s)he is Christian, then I agree that person falls afoul of Colorado law too. Do the plaintiffs have such an example? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/246 "2017-06-27T14:54:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > … on page three, there are thoughtful contributions from **IvoryTowerDenizen** , **Really Not All that Bright** , **Karrius** , and my own humble self. All posters who, if I’ve remembered correctly, identify as liberal, or at least left-of-center,\* and who, in this thread, have at least tried to address both the problems with and necessity of these laws, using both argument and objective reference. > > \ > > \*Apologies to any non-liberals I’ve incorrectly identified as liberals, and any liberals in this thread I’ve accidentally overlooked. Bit late, but for the record I am an unashamed liberal, with slight fiscal conservative tendencies that I tend to repress unless the GOP hasn’t done anything particularly stupid lately. But I haven’t read Alinsky, so they won’t give me a copy of the Liberal Agenda. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/247 "2017-06-27T15:04:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. This seems quite reasonable to me. “Sell me that cake you’re offering to sell anyone else,” is a reasonable request. “Create one-of-a-kind art that advances my position you disagree with,” is not. Thank you. The reason why I support the kind of anti-discrimination accomodation laws that originate (I think) from the Civil Rights act is because, otherwise, I fear that sundown towns or their equivalent will once again become prominent, not because I think such discrimination is wrong or distasteful. I think these protections are necessary because without them, towns might pop up in which a gay person simply can’t get a meal, or a bed, etc., because a majority of the town’s inhabitants are bigoted. But having control over what they write on their cakes doesn’t have anything to do with the possibility of an equivalent to sundown towns. Contrary to right wing radio or other popular understanding, as a liberal/progressive I really do want to (in general) maximize freedom in day-to-day life, both for business owners and customers, as long as they aren’t infringing on the rights of others. I think allowing bakers to choose what messages to right on their cakes, but not what customers they can turn away (at least not based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.), threads this needle in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/248 "2017-06-27T15:15:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not seeing how that applies to the Westboro case, unless the baker would agree to produce an anti-Quran cake for people other than Westboro. Assuming the secular cakist refuses to produce a cake for a Christian explicitly because (s)he is Christian, then I agree that person falls afoul of Colorado law too. Do the plaintiffs have such an example? Not that I am aware of. But the baker isn’t unwilling to sell to the gay couple because they are gay. He’s unwilling to produce a custom wedding cake. In other words, his refusal is to create a custom message in cake form for the customer. He’s not refusing to serve the customer at all; he’s refusing to create a custom cake. Similarly, the secular cake artist refused to create a custom message using Bible verse because he disagreed with the message. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/249 "2017-06-27T15:28:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not that I am aware of. > > But the baker isn’t unwilling to sell to the gay couple because they are gay. He’s unwilling to produce a custom wedding cake. In other words, his refusal is to create a custom message in cake form for the customer. He’s not refusing to serve the customer at all; he’s refusing to create a custom cake. > > Similarly, the secular cake artist refused to create a custom message using Bible verse because he disagreed with the message. At what point does the cake become “custom”? If the bakers regularly sell cakes with “Live Happily Ever After, Ann and Mike”, is it a “custom message” if it says “Andy and Mike” instead? I can understand “we don’t stock figurines that are same sex pairs”, but just the names? Just curious where you think the line and and should be drawn. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/250 "2017-06-27T15:34:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > At what point does the cake become “custom”? If the bakers regularly sell cakes with “Live Happily Ever After, Ann and Mike”, is it a “custom message” if it says “Andy and Mike” instead? I can understand “we don’t stock figurines that are same sex pairs”, but just the names? Just curious where you think the line and and should be drawn. The line is drawn where the creativity to create the message comes from the baker, not the customer. If the customer says, “I want one of your ‘Live Happily’ cakes, with ‘Andy’ and ‘Mike,’ as the names,” the baker should be required to sell. If the customer says, “I met Andy at the marina and our first date was renting a sailboat, so could we get a cake with a nautical theme of some kind?” then, no. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/251 "2017-06-27T15:46:45Z")
How did you guys find out about me and Mike on the sailboat? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/252 "2017-06-27T15:53:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To answer the question, CRS 24-34-601(2)(a) provides in pertinent part that it is a discriminatory practice and unlawful: > > > [@](#): > > > > :. . .that an individual’s patronage or presence at a place of public accommodation is unwelcome, objectionable, unacceptable, or undesirable because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry. > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > I’m not seeing how that applies to the Westboro case, unless the baker would agree to produce an anti-Quran cake for people other than Westboro. Assuming the secular cakist refuses to produce a cake for a Christian explicitly because (s)he is Christian, then I agree that person falls afoul of Colorado law too. Do the plaintiffs have such an example? To a limited extent the courts have ruled that certain behaviours are so intrinsically linked to a protected class that discrimination against the behaviour is discrimination against the protected class. Homosexuality is the prime example of this. So a B&B cannot just say we don’t discriminate against homosexuals, just against men who have sex with other men. So Westboro could argue that being anti-Quranic is so intrinsically tied up in what it means to be an adherent of their particular religious ideology that to discriminate against those who are anti-Quarinc is inherently to discriminate against persons who are their religious members. Not sure if it would fly as an argument, but that is route I would expect them to take. And,as always, IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/253 "2017-06-27T15:56:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How did you guys find out about me and Mike on the sailboat? \ Why, the NSA of course. Don’t you know Obama was watching us all for the last 8 years? \ ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/254 "2017-06-27T15:57:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thank you. The reason why I support the kind of anti-discrimination accomodation laws that originate (I think) from the Civil Rights act is because, otherwise, I fear that sundown towns or their equivalent will once again become prominent, not because I think such discrimination is wrong or distasteful. I think these protections are necessary because without them, towns might pop up in which a gay person simply can’t get a meal, or a bed, etc., because a majority of the town’s inhabitants are bigoted. > > But having control over what they write on their cakes doesn’t have anything to do with the possibility of an equivalent to sundown towns. > > Contrary to right wing radio or other popular understanding, as a liberal/progressive I really do want to (in general) maximize freedom in day-to-day life, both for business owners and customers, as long as they aren’t infringing on the rights of others. I think allowing bakers to choose what messages to right on their cakes, but not what customers they can turn away (at least not based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.), threads this needle in this case. Right-wingers understand the thought process of liberals too well. “Businesses can’t refuse to service A because A is statistically more likely to be correlated with people from “protected group”.” Say a cake decorator refuses to make a cake in the shape of intertwined penises. The liberal/progressive would say " Gays are statistically more likely to request an intertwined penis cake, so you are discriminating against gays." ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/255 "2017-06-27T15:57:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the baker isn’t unwilling to sell to the gay couple because they are gay. He’s unwilling to produce a custom wedding cake. In other words, his refusal is to create a custom message in cake form for the customer. He’s not refusing to serve the customer at all; he’s refusing to create a custom cake. If the baker would sell the exact same cake to a straight couple, then it is not a refusal to create a custom message. And thus far I have seen nothing to indicate that this cake was any different from what anyone else could order. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/256 "2017-06-27T15:58:37Z")
iiandyiiii: > [@](#): > > How did you guys find out about me and Mike on the sailboat? Paul Simon wrote a song about it, right after the one about you and Julio down by the schoolyard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/257 "2017-06-27T16:07:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Right-wingers understand the thought process of liberals too well. “Businesses can’t refuse to service A because A is statistically more likely to be correlated with people from “protected group”.” > > Say a cake decorator refuses to make a cake in the shape of intertwined penises. The liberal/progressive would say " Gays are statistically more likely to request an intertwined penis cake, so you are discriminating against gays." You have successfully slayed those liberals made of straw. If you’d like to know how real-world liberals feel (most of us, anyway), I’m sure many of us in this thread would be happy to help. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/258 "2017-06-27T16:09:55Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Btw, this is not a civil rights case. Businesses that refused to sell to a minority were not basing this on religious beliefs. It was based on bigotry and the courts had to act. As **Really Not All That Bright** has already noted, your assertion rests on a rather stunning ignorance of the way that religious beliefs were used, in the history of the United States, to justify and sustain racial and ethnic discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/259 "2017-06-27T16:10:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The line is drawn where the creativity to create the message comes from the baker, not the customer. If the customer says, “I want one of your ‘Live Happily’ cakes, with ‘Andy’ and ‘Mike,’ as the names,” the baker should be required to sell. > > If the customer says, “I met Andy at the marina and our first date was renting a sailboat, so could we get a cake with a nautical theme of some kind?” then, no. So, if Andy draws up his own nautical themed design and tells the baker, “do this”, then the baker would have to comply? Assuming there was nothing in the design that the baker would not do for anyone (i.e., if the baker was asked to show the couple having sex or something like that). > [@iiandyiii](#): > > How did you guys find out about me and Mike on the sailboat? Weren’t you “in the Navy”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/260 "2017-06-27T16:32:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How did you guys find out about me and Mike on the sailboat? Sailor hats. Dead giveaway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=14)