# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/321 "2017-06-28T14:52:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Compelling someone to be creative is just nonsensical. Can they also be compelled to not screw anything up? To be creative to a certain level of creativeness? > > But I still wonder why on earth anyone would want someone to bake their wedding cake, when they knew that person didn’t want to. Has no one seen _The Help_??? Minnie’s Chocolate Pie, anyone? If nothing else, a SCOTUS opinion will hopefully explain that there is a bright line rule between public accommodations and those businesses which are too “expressive” to qualify. As the various hypotheticals thrown out show, this case isn’t really about LGBT rights. It’s about civil rights. _Exactly_ the same analysis would apply in a case where a baker refuses to bake a cake for an Islamic wedding on religious grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/322 "2017-06-28T15:11:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But I still wonder why on earth anyone would want someone to bake their wedding cake, when they knew that person didn’t want to. Has no one seen _The Help_??? Minnie’s Chocolate Pie, anyone? What if you live in a rural area and there are no other cake makers in the area but the one who hates gay people? What if there is a marked quality difference between the master cake maker who hates gay people and the other cake makers in an area? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/323 "2017-06-28T15:14:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I see. So you are saying (I think) that these cakes are effectively unique works of art and thus the artist (cake maker in this case) cannot be compelled to produce art. If I got that wrong let me know. I’m saying that’s the petitioner’s argument in this case. > [@](#): > > If that is the crux of what you are on about I would suggest this would open a massive can of worms in trying to decide what constitutes an “artist”. If the guy making your Big Mac takes particular pride in his work and tries to arrange the pickles and onions in a particular way to make the sandwich aesthetically pleasing would that be art? No. McDonald’s doesn’t advertise artistic, one-of-a-kind Big Macs; their model is actually that the Big Mac you buy in Boise is identical to the Big Mac you buy in Boston. > [@](#): > > I mean, there are people who actually do just that when preparing a Big Mac for an advertising shot (they have to use the actual ingredients but take particular care to make the sandwich seem as appetizing as possible). There is an art to it. Sure, and if a given artist in that business refused to work with McDonald’s because he was uninspired by the unhealthy food and could not create an appetizing display, McDonald’s could not compel him to work. > [@](#): > > I would suggest if the artist is a person who just creates art on their own then hopes to sell it then you cannot compel them to produce art for anyone. > > On the flip side, if you have a business producing art (whatever it is, say a cake maker or photographer) then you cannot discriminate against your potential customers. > > For instance, Ansel Adams ran around taking beautiful outdoor shots then sold those shots. He would be under no compulsion to photograph anyone’s wedding. If, however, he advertised himself as a wedding photographer, had a Yellow Pages ad as a wedding photographer and had examples of the last 100 weddings he photographed then he cannot discriminate as to whose wedding he photographs. > > Likewise if the cake maker merely made cakes and set them on the shelf for people to buy you cannot make them produce a custom cake. But if they are in the business of making custom cakes then they cannot discriminate against their customers any more than they could discriminate against who walks in the store and buys a cake off the shelf. I hope that the Court does not adopt your proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/324 "2017-06-28T15:21:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, and if a given artist in that business refused to work with McDonald’s because he was uninspired by the unhealthy food and could not create an appetizing display, McDonald’s could not compel him to work. You are correct but then that is not discrimination of the sort the courts do not like. I suspect you already knew that though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/325 "2017-06-28T15:29:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What if you live in a rural area and there are no other cake makers in the area but the one who hates gay people? > > What if there is a marked quality difference between the master cake maker who hates gay people and the other cake makers in an area? Oy. What if I had a sick grandmother, and couldn’t leave her side to go to the next town to see another baker? What if you were a guest at a wedding, and you knew the guy who baked the cake _hated_ the bride (for whatever reason), and had been compelled to bake the cake under duress. Would you eat a piece of cake? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/326 "2017-06-28T15:37:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oy. What if I had a sick grandmother, and couldn’t leave her side to go to the next town to see another baker? > > What if you were a guest at a wedding, and you knew the guy who baked the cake _hated_ the bride (for whatever reason), and had been compelled to bake the cake under duress. Would you eat a piece of cake? You wondered why someone would use a baker who did not like them. I gave you some that are reasonable (not everyone lives in cities with access to dozens of bakers). I think they are sufficiently good reasons but perhaps you do not. Besides, would you expect the Supreme Court (or indeed any court) to rule that the plaintiff use a different baker and leave it at that? Also, I would eat a piece of cake from the person compelled to bake it because if they fucked with the cake in some way I would probably have a good cause for a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/327 "2017-06-28T16:56:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Also, I would eat a piece of cake from the person compelled to bake it because if they fucked with the cake in some way I would probably have a good cause for a lawsuit. Yeah, it’d be ironic if after being forced to comply by a civil judgement, a baker mixed poison into the cake and invited civil _and_ criminal liability. It’s like bane, on your wedding day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/328 "2017-06-28T20:08:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You wondered why someone would use a baker who did not like them. > > I gave you some that are reasonable (not everyone lives in cities with access to dozens of bakers). I think they are sufficiently good reasons but perhaps you do not. I do not. Firstly, the idea that there is some isolated village somewhere that just happens to have a stupendous baker is pretty far-fetched. But also, think about what you are doing the next time you respond to this thread and consider how that might inform you of alternative places to get a wedding cake. > [@](#): > > Besides, would you expect the Supreme Court (or indeed any court) to rule that the plaintiff use a different baker and leave it at that? No > [@](#): > > Also, I would eat a piece of cake from the person compelled to bake it because if they fucked with the cake in some way I would probably have a good cause for a lawsuit. Wow. You’d eat something that you have good reason to believe was tampered with because if anything happened, you might be able to sue someone for it. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/329 "2017-06-28T20:13:47Z")
Why did black people want to eat at lunch counters when it was obvious the owners didn’t want them to eat there? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/330 "2017-06-28T20:15:06Z")
“Good reason”? Is having to comply with the law a “good reason” to do such a thing? Man, is God love or what? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/331 "2017-06-28T21:03:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Wow. You’d eat something that you have good reason to believe was tampered with because if anything happened, you might be able to sue someone for it. OK. Actually, there’s good reason to believe the food was _not_ tampered with, considering the penalties involved. I gather it’s reasonably safe to assume the baker might be homophobic, but not psychopathic. We operate daily on the assumption that the people around us are reasonably aware of the consequences of our actions, else we’d be paralyzed by doubt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/332 "2017-06-28T22:07:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Actually, there’s good reason to believe the food was _not_ tampered with, considering the penalties involved. I gather it’s reasonably safe to assume the baker might be homophobic, but not psychopathic. We operate daily on the assumption that the people around us are reasonably aware of the consequences of our actions, else we’d be paralyzed by doubt. No, I don’t operate on the assumption that people who hate me and are forced BY ME to do things they don’t want to do will do so without malice towards me. You are either fighting or ignoring the hypothetical. I was having dinner with a buddy once, at a not so fancy place. He ordered a steak and then ended up sending it back 3 times (I do not exaggerate). I advised him not to eat it after it came back the 3rd time. YMMV, or maybe you’ve never worked in a kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/333 "2017-06-28T22:19:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I don’t operate on the assumption that people who hate me and are forced BY ME to do things they don’t want to do will do so without malice towards me. You are either fighting or ignoring the hypothetical. > > I was having dinner with a buddy once, at a not so fancy place. He ordered a steak and then ended up sending it back 3 times (I do not exaggerate). I advised him not to eat it after it came back the 3rd time. YMMV, or maybe you’ve never worked in a kitchen. Well, the baker can be as malice-ridden as he likes, but the penalties for selling an adulterated cake will nevertheless be extreme. I suppose if the court ruling had made the baker decide to utterly abandon his carer in baking, there might be some risk. No big deal. I likely wouldn’t have pursued the case to SCOTUS, myself, just publicized the baker’s bigotry at length on social media and sought other sources for my cake. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/334 "2017-06-28T22:33:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I do not. Firstly, the idea that there is some isolated village somewhere that just happens to have a stupendous baker is pretty far-fetched. I’d be willing to bet there are plenty of stupendous bakers in remote areas. Indeed without access to a wide variety of baked good there are probably plenty who taught themselves and do it at home. Grandma’s apple pie and all that. I watch cooking competitions on occasion and every once in a while an amazing baker pops up out of nowhere. They may not be common but they exist. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/335 "2017-06-29T00:11:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I do not. Firstly, the idea that there is some isolated village somewhere that just happens to have a stupendous baker is pretty far-fetched. But also, think about what you are doing the next time you respond to this thread and consider how that might inform you of alternative places to get a wedding cake. > … Huh? There are isolated paces where there aren’t many choices if you want to buy a wedding cake. A friend got married in such a place recently. There were only two bakers willing to deliver a wedding cake to her wedding. And one of them served them stale and uninspiring cake for the sample. I find it rather easy to imagine there are places where there’s not a lot of choice if you want a wedding cake. And one bigoted baker could mean you couldn’t have a wedding cake. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/336 "2017-06-29T01:28:02Z")
Are people still seriously arguing in favor of “separate but equal?” If you’re straight, you have your choice of any of five bakers, but if you’re gay, you are limited only to three. As for race, that was solved by the 14th amendment. Many of us believe the same amendment should be used to protect gays. (It is not at all impossible to find people who have strong religious beliefs about blacks; there are churches who hold that being black is the mark of the curse of Ham – and even some who hold it is the Mark of Cain. There is no reason to permit people to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation that does not apply also to race.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/337 "2017-06-29T01:34:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Are people still seriously arguing in favor of “separate but equal?” If you’re straight, you have your choice of any of five bakers, but if you’re gay, you are limited only to three. > > As for race, that was solved by the 14th amendment. Many of us believe the same amendment should be used to protect gays. Many of us believe that substantive changes to law should come from legislators. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/338 "2017-06-29T01:36:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Having abandoned my attempts to explain any contrary reasoning, I will now discuss what the Court might do. > > First Amendment law (Employment Division v Smith) seems to favor the state: > > But that inquiry was related to the Free Exercise Clause, and I’m not sure how “both the right to speak freely and the right to refrain from speaking at all," (Wooley v. Maynard) might apply here. But the focus of the challenge is on the compelled creation of unique art. If the Court believes that there’s not much in the way of unique expressive art going on, I suspect the bakers will lose. Well, Elane Photography lost in New Mexico, and the Supremes declined to hear an appeal. > **[US supreme court declines appeal of photographer who refused gay couple](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/07/supreme-court-gay-marriage-new-mexico-photographer)** > > Justices will not debate New Mexico's highest court, which ruled against company for refusing service to a same-sex ceremony Wedding photographers Jonathan and Elaine Huguenin declined to photograph a same sex commitment ceremony and told Vanessa Willock and Misti Collinsworth that they only photographed traditional weddings. When pressed for clarification they said they did not photograph same sex ceremonies. It is a different court, so nothing is certain, but I think photographer involves way more expression than baker, and it also involves way more engagement in the procedures. The photographer has to actually attend and watch the ceremony and festivities and work on the actual photos of the couple. The baker, on the other hand, might never even know that the cake is for a same sex couple. I bet most wedding cake bakers never even meet both halves of the happy couple. If one wanted a cake made in a small town with only one fabulous but gay-hating bakery, it would probably be frightfully easy to get a cake from them…one of the couple could just go in and order it. They could take an opposite sex friend with them for cover, I guess…but that would probably be overkill. You give them money and they bake you a cake, they don’t even have to come to the wedding. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/339 "2017-06-29T01:41:21Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Well, Elane Photography lost in New Mexico, and the Supremes declined to hear an appeal. Yes. They didn’t decide the merits. Now they have accepted a case. What signal, if any, do you take from that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/340 "2017-06-29T01:51:21Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > You give them money and they bake you a cake Well, it helps if they knew you were coming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=18)