# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/41 "2013-12-08T19:49:24Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Because I do pass, and because I’m Honey T-Girl (as in, “don’t give a fuck”\*), Whoa, you’re transgendered? So you were born a man and is now a woman? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/42 "2013-12-08T19:49:28Z")
> [@simster](#): > > cite please? because I don’t believe any of that statement is accurate - You ain’t never heard of Wickard v Filburn? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/43 "2013-12-08T20:01:22Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Whoa, you’re transgendered? So you were born a man and is now a woman? I came “out” about 3/4 year ago when I came out at work, which was the only place I wasn’t. I’m an intersex transwoman, which means I not only was born with female and male aspects, but I transitioned socially and legally from one to the other. My physician certified in an affidavit I was born ambiguous enough that either female or male applies to me, depending on the criteria. I didn’t like coming out on here because I fearful it would get back to my job, where I was in full stealth. After I transitioned fully and was welcomed with open arms by my employer, I became a community activist and educator, and I felt it helped my case to share personal experiences - you know, speak from “authority” - on the subject on the SDMB. Winter break I was thinking of starting an “Ask the…” thread when I would have more time to answer questions. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/44 "2013-12-08T20:01:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 1964 called. It wants its bigotry-disguised-as-libertarianism back. 1964 didn’t have that. Jim Crow laws were **laws** , not wink-wink social contracts, segregation was mandatory and failure to comply was punishable by law. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/45 "2013-12-08T20:16:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > 1964 didn’t have that. Jim Crow laws were **laws** , not wink-wink social contracts, segregation was mandatory and failure to comply was punishable by law. Jim Crow laws didn’t cover a lot of places and a lot of bigotry. Hence [Green Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/46 "2013-12-08T20:26:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > 1964 didn’t have that. Jim Crow laws were **laws** , not wink-wink social contracts, segregation was mandatory and failure to comply was punishable by law. I was referring to the backlash against the Civil Rights Act, on which backlash Goldwater campaigned, on purportedly libertarian grounds. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/47 "2013-12-08T20:34:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Selling a cake that had been adulterated or sabotaged in some way… well, now the baker’s gone from civil to criminal court, and he served up three tiers of evidence. There is a big difference between sabotaging with noxious substances, or instead of a [lovingly crafted](http://www.bestofcake.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Buttercream-Wedding-Cakes-Ideas.jpg) white cake made from scratch with handmade french buttercream frosting you get one made with a box of dollar store off brand white cake mix, and several tubs of the veggie shortening ‘buttercream’ that the local cheap grocery store uses in their bakery with your little rainbow pony gay dudes toppers. Trust me, I could make this from a handcrafted white cake made with the finest Princess flour from King Arthur Flour, with a hand made french butter cream frosting made with the best unsalted organic butter sourced from a local farm or I could make one that looks _exactly_ like it from a cheap box mix, and hit up a buddy for a tub of white [buttercream](https://www.google.com/shopping/product/4482006774161412892?q=cheap+buttercream+frosting&newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&hs=Pam&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1440&bih=747&ei=tdakUs_tK8XYyAG-zIGABg&ved=0CI0DEKYrMBE). So - you have in hand a photograph of the one offline for the luxury spiffy cake, and you have a snapshot from someones smartphone at the wedding that looks exactly like the internet cake but with a couple bronies on top and complain that you didn’t get the cake you ordered? Looks the same on the outside except for the bronies - you didn’t order bronies? Nope. Cute couple cutting the cake picture - looks like a white cake, was it a white cake? Yup, but it wasn’t the one I ordered. What did the order form say? White cake, white buttercream, flowers and bronies. Well, that is exactly what you got. Sorry it didn’t taste exactly like you remembered, but taste is so subjective, isn’t it now. Passive aggressive baker at your service. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/48 "2013-12-08T20:37:22Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Jim Crow laws didn’t cover a lot of places and a lot of bigotry. > Hence [Green Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) Certainly, but when one compares the states with Jim Crow laws to the states where most black Americans of the era lived, it’s a _minority_ of bigotry that barred black Americans from equal accommodations purely due to the owner’s ill-will, rather than the law (plus said ill-will, in many cases, I assume). Thus, bigotry-disguised-as-libertarianism wasn’t the driving force of most discrimination, but rather bigotry embedded in the law. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I was referring to the backlash against the Civil Rights Act, on which backlash Goldwater campaigned, on purportedly libertarian grounds. E.g., “The Conscience of a Conservative”? In that, his objection is to _federal_ intervention, not _government_ intervention: > [@Goldwater](#): > > "It so happens that I am in agreement with the objectives of the Supreme Court as stated in the Brown decision. I am not prepared, however, to impose that judgment of mine on the people of Mississippi or South Carolina. . . . That is their business, not mine. I believe that the problem of race relations, like all social and cultural problems, is best handled by the people directly concerned . . . [and] should not be effected by engines of national power.” ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/49 "2013-12-08T20:56:34Z")
Many thanks to those that answered my earlier question (I have been at work, on a Sunday!). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/50 "2013-12-08T21:46:22Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Wickard v. Filburn. > [Wickard v. Filburn - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn) > > " The Court decided that Filburn’s wheat growing activities reduced the amount of wheat he would buy for chicken feed on the open market, and because wheat was traded nationally, Filburn’s production of more wheat than he was allotted was affecting interstate commerce. Thus, Filburn’s production could be regulated by the federal government." Well, there is more to that specific case that just ‘growing for personal usage’ - in that there was a limit on ‘total wheat grown per acre, etc’ and the defendant went beyond that limit for wheat - although - that does definitely validate your point - I think that in general terms - it would never come to court if a farmer was eating his own produce that did not require him to grow beyond ‘the limit’. (Had the defendant used part of his wheat crop quota instead of going over quota, the case would never have happened). Thanks for the cite tho - thats interesting. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/51 "2013-12-08T22:05:05Z")
There are a whole series of cases, the progeny if you will, of Wickard v. Filburn, and I thank my fellow posters for looking it up while I was doodling about. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/52 "2013-12-08T22:42:48Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > After 1964 my parents, who are white, posed as buyers for homes that had been denied to Black buyers days or hours earlier. The next buyer would have a subpoena in his pocket. In this era of internet social networking, sting volunteers would be even easier to recruit. There was a recent episode of _This American Life_ called “House Rules” about the Fair Housing Act which starts off talking to people who still do that sort of “mystery shopping” - and, sadly, discrimination remains rife in the housing market and enforcement of the FHA extremely limited. It’s also worth listening to because the surprise hero of the piece is **George Romney**. Yep - _that guy’s_ dad. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/53 "2013-12-08T23:02:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How is a wedding cake designer different from a hamburger designer? Because hamburgers aren’t specially commissioned for a unique event. They are mass-produced and interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/54 "2013-12-08T23:08:48Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Because hamburgers aren’t specially commissioned for a unique event. They are mass-produced and interchangeable. I remember at my wedding when I held my wife’s gloved hand and we cut into the Wedding Double Bacon Cheeseburger. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/55 "2013-12-08T23:13:00Z")
Then what do the signs I see in businesses everywhere that say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” really mean? What kind of person can they legally not serve. I always thought someone who was obviously high on drugs or drunk that was causing a disturbance would be an example of just such a person. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/56 "2013-12-08T23:23:53Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Then what do the signs I see in businesses everywhere that say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” really mean? > > What kind of person can they legally not serve. > > I always thought someone who was obviously high on drugs or drunk that was causing a disturbance would be an example of just such a person. It means exactly that, they can refuse anyone the most any reason. The except to that is written into state and federal laws. A business can not refuse service to anyone based on their protected class status. A business can’t refuse service to a black man because he is black. A business could however refuse service to a black man because he’s shooting spit balls at the staff. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/57 "2013-12-08T23:28:50Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Because hamburgers aren’t specially commissioned for a unique event. They are mass-produced and interchangeable. You think wedding cakes are unique, and don’t have interchangeable decorations? And I think I can still get my burger my way at Burger King. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/58 "2013-12-08T23:52:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > E.g., “The Conscience of a Conservative”? In that, his objection is to _federal_ intervention, not _government_ intervention: Yes, because any civil rights act would be SO effective if it were left up to the former Confederates to bring it into being… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/59 "2013-12-09T00:06:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yes, because any civil rights act would be SO effective if it were left up to the former Confederates to bring it into being… The last Confederate [died in 1951](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasant_Crump), so they wouldn’t have been involved in either case. If Goldwater thought civil rights legislation would be passed at the state level in South, he was wrong. Allow me to expand on what I mean by objecting to characterizing Goldwater’s position as libertarian: The Goldwater/state’s rights position was that civil rights were a matter for the states. The result of this position would have been the continuation of Jim Crow laws and legal discrimination in general. If there were any proposals made of ending state and local segregation laws, but not prohibiting private discrimination, I am unaware of them, and welcome correction on this point. The federal-civil-rights position was that civil rights laws were needed, and a federal one was the only way to achieve the desired goal. The libertarian position, presumably, would have been to end Jim Crow laws, and make private discrimination the choice of individuals, neither prohibited (as under the Civil Rights Act) nor compulsory (as under Jim Crow). Therefore, the libertarian position was not representative of either major “side” of the civil rights movement circa 1964. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/60 "2013-12-09T00:46:31Z")
A lot of couples buy their cake toppers from another source and add it to the cake themselves. So, the baker doesn’t even really have to know. Not that I’m advocating for that though. I think the bigots should be forced to sell to everyone, but I also think no one should patronize them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=4)