# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/761 "2017-12-12T19:07:45Z")
Then, in this case, we shouldn’t force him to do anything? I agree, now all we need to do is find that line where societies’ rights supersede an individuals rights. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/762 "2017-12-12T19:10:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you cannot compel them to make a cake, even a non-custom cake? > > Gay couple comes in, right behind a straight couple. Straight couple buys the last cake off the wall, can the baker then say that he doesn’t have to bake the gay couple a cake? I think it would be the logical conclusion as I understand the baker’s argument that they would argue that they are not compelled to bake even a generic design as an on demand order. In reality it seems unlikely that a baker would make typical wedding cakes (e.g. one with multiple tiers) on speculation to have on the shelf for general sale. So having multiple such cakes on the shelf might seem unusual. But if other somewhat more generic cake designs (for the sake of argument a single tier sheet cake) are normally stocked then the baker would find himself bound to sell a such a cake to a gay couple after restocking his allotment of generic cakes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/763 "2017-12-12T19:36:49Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No, I’m not. > > And I get that he doesn’t want to, I just don’t care. And that is not a argument that is just you not caring about other people’s rights. Would you care if the lawsuit was about compelling an artist to paint a portrait of Trump in the Oval office looking pensive like in the famous JFK portrait? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/764 "2017-12-12T19:39:27Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > And I get that he doesn’t want to, I just don’t care. How lucky the country is that your cares don’t create law or policy, then! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/765 "2017-12-12T19:41:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is an example of the fallacy of equivocation. > > Often illustrated by: _Stale breadcrumbs are better than nothing. And nothing is better than a thick, juicy steak! Therefore, stale breadcrumbs are better than a thick juicy steak._ > > In your example, “something,” is used to generically cover both that which is being refused - a custom wedding cake - and that which is not being refused: sales of other, stock merchandise. > > With that fallacy exposed, we can easily answer this: > > He didn’t refuse [_all service_], he just refused [_a custom wedding cake_]. > > Got it? A distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/766 "2017-12-12T19:44:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, I know. And they should use the same double think that allowed them to change their belief structure in order to accommodate cultural changes and prevent themselves from becoming irrelevant, and change their beliefs about SSM. Many of them have. But the fundamentalists and evangelicals have not. > [@](#): > > It’s all pick and choose. So, if they pick beliefs that make them bigots, it was only their own idea to choose that. Yes, people generally choose their faith. For example, I choose to believe that the story of creation is an allegory for the big bang, the formation of planets and stars, the creation of life and evolution culminating in the creation of man. Others believe men rode around on dinosaurs a couple hundred generations ago. I am not sure how that disparity in belief makes one set of beliefs more constitutionally protected than the other. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/767 "2017-12-12T19:45:20Z")
Should the right-wing homophobe be allowed to tell the gay couple “I’ll sell you a cake, just not a good one.”? Would offering to sell gay people nothing but sloppy garbage be an acceptable and non-discriminatory business practice? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/768 "2017-12-12T19:49:54Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Should the right-wing homophobe be allowed to tell the gay couple “I’ll sell you a cake, just not a good one.”? Would offering to sell gay people nothing but sloppy garbage be an acceptable and non-discriminatory business practice? You are assuming that “discrimination” in business is some absolute evil. But our laws and jurisprudence recognizes that sometimes it’s bad, and sometimes it’s not. That’s what this case is about-- determining whether it’s bad in this particular case. Personally, I would be OK with the scenario you describe as long as you changed\* “sell” to “create and sell”. You keep wanted to gloss over the difference between selling something “off the shelf” and “creating a specialty product”. But that is at the core of the issue here. \*If we really want to get into the nitty gritty, I’d probably be OK with leaving it at “sell”, but I’d have to think about that a bit more before committing myself. For the purpose of this case, though, we’re not talking about selling off the shelf items. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/769 "2017-12-12T19:51:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To take one example: his claim is that “Baptists,” are among the groups that regard homosexual behavior as sinful. > > The Southern Baptist Convention, the most populous of the Baptist denominations, does not permit same-sex marriage. > > But the Alliance of Baptists, roughly 65,000 strong, do recognize and perform same-sex marriages. > > So in my view, it’s not useful to say “Baptists,” because there are a kajillion different Baptist denominations. There are also other Baptist denominations that permit gay marriages. For example the National Baptist Convention USA with 6.5 million members (as opposed to the Southern Baptists with 15 million members). > **[National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Baptist_Convention,_USA,_Inc.#Same-sex_marriage_and_LGBT_issues)** > > The National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., more commonly known as the National Baptist Convention (NBC USA or NBC), is a Baptist Christian denomination headquartered at the Baptist World Center in Nashville, Tennessee and affiliated with the Baptist World Alliance.\[i\] It is also the largest predominantly and traditionally African American church in the United States and the second largest Baptist denomination in the world. > The root of cooperative efforts among Black Baptists began in the Antebe... The largest Presbyterian denomination also allows it and they are pretty mainline: > **[Presbyterian Church (USA) | Homosexuality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_(USA)#Homosexuality)** > > Paragraph G-6.0106b of the Book of Order, which was adopted in 1996, prohibited the ordination of those who were not faithful in heterosexual marriage or chaste in singleness. This paragraph was included in the Book of Order from 1997 to 2011, and was commonly referred to by its pre-ratification designation, "Amendment B". Several attempts were made to remove this from the Book of Order, ultimately culminating in its removal in 2011. In 2011, the Presbyteries of the PC(USA) passed Amendment Many... There are simply too many mainline denominations that permit gay marriage to say that this is anything close to a consensus position against gay marriage by Christianity in America. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/770 "2017-12-12T19:51:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You are assuming that “discrimination” in business is some absolute evil. But our laws and jurisprudence recognizes that sometimes it’s bad, and sometimes it’s not. That’s what this case is about-- determining whether it’s bad in this particular case. Personally, I would be OK with the scenario you describe as long as you changed “sell” to “create and sell”. You keep wanted to gloss over the difference between selling something “off the shelf” and “creating a specialty product”. But that is at the core of the issue here. Can a restaurant with specialty tasting menus discriminate? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/771 "2017-12-12T20:00:52Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Bollocks. > > “I’d like you to do something.” > > “No.” > > “You’re refusing me.” > > “No I’m not.” He’s not refusing them because they’re gay. > [@](#): > > He didn’t refuse, he just refused. Got it. Even if you cannot suss out the difference between the two, I suspect that the Supreme Court will. Even if they ultimately rule that he cannot refuse to make the cake, they will see the distinction between refusing to serve gay customers to whom he is willing to sell anything other than a custom wedding cake, and refusing to serve gay people. > [@](#): > > At the moment? Don’t know. There have been in the past. I know about anti-gay discrimination created by the HIV scare, were you talking about something else? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/772 "2017-12-12T20:02:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You are assuming that “discrimination” in business is some absolute evil. But our laws and jurisprudence recognizes that sometimes it’s bad, and sometimes it’s not. That’s what this case is about-- determining whether it’s bad in this particular case. Personally, I would be OK with the scenario you describe as long as you changed\* “sell” to “create and sell”. You keep wanted to gloss over the difference between selling something “off the shelf” and “creating a specialty product”. But that is at the core of the issue here. No, that’s window dressing. The core of the issue is whether or not belonging to a certain club gives one the right to discriminate against gay people. I see this as being little different than arguing that abortion should be illegal because some people oppose it on religious grounds or that it’s okay to date young girls because Joseph was older than Mary. Holding a belief is not a religious practice. One is not required to open a business and refuse custom to gay people in any way in order to practice one’s religion, so that’s not a religious practice either. If it were, everyone who belonged to that religion but didn’t own a business while refusing to serve gay people was a sinner. Is this the case? Do they make that argument. > [@](#): > > \*If we really want to get into the nitty gritty, I’d probably be OK with leaving it at “sell”, but I’d have to think about that a bit more before committing myself. For the purpose of this case, though, we’re not talking about selling off the shelf items. Really? It’s easy as pie for me. “I’ll sell you this but not that” smacks of “I’ll let you drink out of that fountain but not this one.” (And it’s puzzling to me that these people are so desperate to justify their homophobia that they take it this far. Making the cake and confessing to the sin seems much more efficient.) ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/773 "2017-12-12T20:03:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Saying that no one is forcing a baker to run a bakery seems like a distinction without a difference. Sure he could just stop producing wedding cakes altogether (which is in fact what this baker did) but when wedding cakes represent over 20% of your business (as was the case with this baker) you are **coercing the baker to use his artistic expression to do something he doesn’t want to do.** Except he apparently does want to do (produce wedding cakes) what he’s refused to do. As long as he doesn’t have to do it for for gay people. That much is clear. Colorado says you can’t discriminate against gay people anymore than you can against other protected classes of people. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/774 "2017-12-12T20:06:38Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > There is no such thing as an “off the shelf” wedding cake. He didn’t refuse to sell them a gay themed wedding cake as he refused before they got to the point of discussing the design. There was some talk of a rainbow design. Was that fake news? Perhaps all wedding cakes are custom just all portraits are custom. If there is no such thing as an off the shelf wedding cake then all wedding cakes may be a form of art. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/775 "2017-12-12T20:06:58Z")
I really think the religious arguments are a red herring. This isn’t going to be decided based on free exercise grounds. It’s going to be decided based on compelled speech, if any exists. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/776 "2017-12-12T20:11:36Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > A distinction without a difference. I predict the Supreme Court will perceive one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/777 "2017-12-12T20:33:18Z")
Probably. If they don’t excuse their right-wing bigotry one way, they’ll find another. So long as it’s understood the real reason isn’t because they belong to some church that requires such bigotry but because they don’t like (abhor, as you put it) gay people getting married. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/778 "2017-12-12T20:33:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There was some talk of a rainbow design. Was that fake news? My understanding is that they never got to the point of talking about design, but that he shut them down as soon as he was aware it was for a gay wedding. The only talk I’ve heard about rainbows have been in hypotheticals. Did you have a cite that says otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/779 "2017-12-12T20:34:52Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Should the right-wing homophobe be allowed to tell the gay couple “I’ll sell you a cake, just not a good one.”? Would offering to sell gay people nothing but sloppy garbage be an acceptable and non-discriminatory business practice? Should the liberal artist be able to tell the conservative “I will paint you a picture of Trump in a loincloth on the back of an giant eagle Making America Great Again, just not a good one” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mr.Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Bill)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/780 "2017-12-12T20:47:00Z")
The thing I am wondering about in all this is: Why on earth would a gay couple want an avowed homophobe to bake their wedding cake? Wedding cakes are complex, intricate creations which take a lot of work and attention to detail. There are too many ways it could get screwed up, ranging from deliberate sabotage that would not show up until people actually tried to eat the cake, to negligence caused by not wanting to make the thing in the first place. Why not respond by saying: “Thank you for letting us know about your feelings. Have a nice day.” And then going to the bakery down the street operated by reasonable people? In my opinion, trying to force a homophobe to create one’s wedding cake against his wishes, just because you can, comes dangerously close to demonstrating an actual “Gay Agenda”, thus vindicating the fears of the anti-gay crowd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=40)