# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/781 "2017-12-12T20:50:21Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Can a restaurant with specialty tasting menus discriminate? Yes. In some cases. If they make custom celebratory pizzas in a shape that celebrates events (like the pizza in the shape of a circle to celebrate the last solar eclipse) and they don’t want to make the pizza in the shape of the Dallas Cowboy’s logo because “fuck the Cowboys,” that is up to them. If they hand craft bacon related food items, they creatively inject bacon into everything they make and and someone loves their Wedding Cakes but they want it without the bacon because they are marrying a Jew, they don’t have to accommodate that request. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/782 "2017-12-12T20:50:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Should the liberal artist be able to tell the conservative “I will paint you a picture of Trump in a loincloth on the back of an giant eagle Making America Great Again, just not a good one” If drawing people in loincloths on eagles is not something the artist does on a regular basis, then sure, he can refuse a request to do something that he would normally not do. If he normally does draw people on eagles and sporting loincloths, then it should not matter who’s head is on the body. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/783 "2017-12-12T20:51:51Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/784 "2017-12-12T20:52:14Z")
> [@Mr.Bill](#): > > The thing I am wondering about in all this is: > > Why on earth would a gay couple want an avowed homophobe to bake their wedding cake? > > Wedding cakes are complex, intricate creations which take a lot of work and attention to detail. There are too many ways it could get screwed up, ranging from deliberate sabotage that would not show up until people actually tried to eat the cake, to negligence caused by not wanting to make the thing in the first place. > > Why not respond by saying: “Thank you for letting us know about your feelings. Have a nice day.” And then going to the bakery down the street operated by reasonable people? > > In my opinion, trying to force a homophobe to create one’s wedding cake against his wishes, just because you can, comes dangerously close to demonstrating an actual “Gay Agenda”, thus vindicating the fears of the anti-gay crowd. Why on earth would black people want to eat at lunch counters run by racists? Why would they want to stay in hotels owned by bigots? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/785 "2017-12-12T20:57:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If they make custom celebratory pizzas in a shape that celebrates events (like the pizza in the shape of a circle to celebrate the last solar eclipse) I don’t think they came up with pizza shaped like a circle for the eclipse. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mr.Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Bill)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/786 "2017-12-12T20:57:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Why on earth would black people want to eat at lunch counters run by racists? Why would they want to stay in hotels owned by bigots? I understand your point and even agree with you that homophobia should be confronted. I just question whether a wedding cake is the best venue for that. Why give a homophobe the opportunity to spoil what is supposed to be a happy, special occasion? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/787 "2017-12-12T21:02:49Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Really? It’s easy as pie for me. “I’ll sell you this but not that” smacks of “I’ll let you drink out of that fountain but not this one.” That may be because you don’t fully understand what is going on here. The baker is not saying “I will sell you that cake but not that one” the baker is saying “I will sell you this cake but I will not sell that one to anyone” So its more like “you may drink out of that fountain but no one may drink out of this one” > [@](#): > > (And it’s puzzling to me that these people are so desperate to justify their homophobia that they take it this far. Making the cake and confessing to the sin seems much more efficient.) You make very bad arguments that only make sense to people that already agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/788 "2017-12-12T21:03:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Should the liberal artist be able to tell the conservative “I will paint you a picture of Trump in a loincloth on the back of an giant eagle Making America Great Again, just not a good one” Sure, if that’s what they ordered. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/789 "2017-12-12T21:03:46Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > As far as I can tell your hypothetical has not been specifically asked. But applying the principles of the baker’s attorney’s argument I think they would say that government should not be allowed to compel the baker to make any cake of any design which has not already been made, even cakes of generic design that have previously been made on speculation and offered for sale to the general public. > > Their argument seems to be that making a cake is artistic expression and that government cannot compel artistic expression. It seems reasonable to me (I’ll set the law aside, since I’m not a lawyer) that the government can’t compel him to any artistic expression–but they can forbid him from selling his services as a public accommodation if he’s willing to discriminate in this way. A similar situation, I’d think, would arise if I rented out my dance studio for children’s birthday parties and taught kids a couple of dances–but refused to rent it out for black kids. I can’t make a claim about compelling artistic instruction, if the only difference between what I’ll do and what I won’t do is a protected trait of the customer. As for **Morgenstern** the Chippendale Dancer, I’d think a performance like the one he’d give would be highly…interactive? If I’m right, I think a dancer might reasonably claim that he couldn’t give an adequate performance for a man, whereas he could for a woman. The interactivity makes it impossible to give the same dance. This is qualitatively different from the wedding cakes, where the cake itself is gonna be the same whether the couple is gay or straight. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/790 "2017-12-12T21:04:31Z")
> [@Mr.Bill](#): > > I just question whether a wedding cake is the best venue for that. People should be challenged where they are, not where it would be convenient for them to be. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/791 "2017-12-12T21:04:43Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Except he apparently does want to do (produce wedding cakes) what he’s refused to do. As long as he doesn’t have to do it for for gay people. That much is clear. No its not clear. Its the entire point of the litigation. He doesn’t want to sell wedding cakes that celebrate gay weddings. That is arguably content discrimination and not person discrimination, so the line really isn’t that clear unless you are already convinced of the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/792 "2017-12-12T21:05:49Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Probably. If they don’t excuse their right-wing bigotry one way, they’ll find another. So long as it’s understood the real reason isn’t because they belong to some church that requires such bigotry but because they don’t like (abhor, as you put it) gay people getting married. Are you talking about the exact same Supreme Court that legalized gay marriage nationwide? You know, the one that recognized a constitutional right to gay marriage? Those bigots that abhor gay people getting married? They’re the ones that are going to excuse their right wing gay bigotry one way or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/793 "2017-12-12T21:08:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My understanding is that they never got to the point of talking about design, but that he shut them down as soon as he was aware it was for a gay wedding. > > The only talk I’ve heard about rainbows have been in hypotheticals. Did you have a cite that says otherwise? Yes there have been two that were linked in this thread from local Denver Newspapers I think. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/794 "2017-12-12T21:09:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You make very bad arguments that only make sense to people that already agree with you. So go read a book or something if you don’t like what I have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/795 "2017-12-12T21:10:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If drawing people in loincloths on eagles is not something the artist does on a regular basis, then sure, he can refuse a request to do something that he would normally not do. > > If he normally does draw people on eagles and sporting loincloths, then it should not matter who’s head is on the body. And yet many artists have refused to paint portraits of Trump. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/796 "2017-12-12T21:11:16Z")
> [@Mr.Bill](#): > > I understand your point and even agree with you that homophobia should be confronted. I just question whether a wedding cake is the best venue for that. > > Why give a homophobe the opportunity to spoil what is supposed to be a happy, special occasion? If he had a sign up outside that had said “The owner of this establishment is a bigot.” then they would have known not to go there. Instead, the owner had put out a sign that said “open”, which indicates that it is a place of public accommodation, and that they would not be refused service. They did not go to him in order to have their happy occasion ruined, the owner decided to do that on his own. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/797 "2017-12-12T21:12:45Z")
> [@Mr.Bill](#): > > I understand your point and even agree with you that homophobia should be confronted. I just question whether a wedding cake is the best venue for that. > > Why give a homophobe the opportunity to spoil what is supposed to be a happy, special occasion? I’m not aware if this is true for this scenario, but similar types of strategic litigation has been done in the past to push for societal change. It needs to fine the right plaintiff that has suffered some sort of harm that is justiciable, a target who is causing the harm, and a sympathetic venue. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/798 "2017-12-12T21:12:55Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Sure, if that’s what they ordered. And you would be perfectly fine telling the gay couple that they can have a wedding cake from the baker but its going to be a really a shitty wedding cake? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/799 "2017-12-12T21:14:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There was some talk of a rainbow design. Was that fake news? > > Perhaps all wedding cakes are custom just all portraits are custom. If there is no such thing as an off the shelf wedding cake then all wedding cakes may be a form of art. The rainbow design was what they ultimately got from another bakery. The couple said they never got to discuss the design before the conversation was shut down , and I have not seen the baker disagree with that statement. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/800 "2017-12-12T21:14:28Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > So go read a book or something if you don’t like what I have to say. This is great debates, you are allowed to proselytize and I am allowed to tell you how shitty your arguments are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=41)