# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/861 "2017-12-13T15:40:39Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I think the real difficulty in this debate is confusion over how this baker designs and makes his cake. The baker’s brief claims that “Before designing [the cake], he meets with the couple to learn their desires, personalities, preferences, and wedding details.” But it provides no other detail over what that means. > > There was an amicus brief filed by several (pro-same-sex marriage) bakers which argued that wedding cakes were a real art form and used a number of examples of cakes specifically tailored to the couple and their interests, etc. (and it had pictures!). I found that brief rather persuasive about the level of personalization and artistry that could go into wedding cakes. > > I don’t know if this baker goes to that extreme with every couple. But if so, it seems to me to be materially different than refusing to bake Design #5 for a particular event (which was how we picked the cake when I got married. You chose from a list cake types and then looked through a book of designs and chose one and we got the number 7 in chocolate with vanilla icing – or something, I don’t really remember. But this guy is claiming that he doesn’t do that, I think.) . But I’m still unclear on what the cake is SAYING, other than “The bride and groom like chocolate” or “Buttercream is yummy, eat me”. Even if this baker insists on meeting with the couple and getting their life stories and a full profile of their wishes, dreams and hopes for the future ( frankly, I think that claim is BS) how is that translated into “cake-speak”? How does the cake he makes for a man and woman who are sweet and gentle differ from the cake he makes for an abuser who’s marrying his punching bag? Are there differences that reflect any aspect of the couple aside from their color and flavor preferences? Another aspect of the case that interests me, although I haven’t seen it raised yet, is one of basic commerce. Once the transaction is complete and you have your cake and the baker has his money, the baker has forfeited all interest in what you do with your cake. You can sell it to a gay couple. You can give it to a van full of hippies for use in their Satanic rituals. Now I was interested if there was an exception to this and it turns out there is. And it involves art, specifically buying art work with the intent of deliberately destroying it. > **[If You Buy an Artwork, Can You Legally Eat It? | Artsy](https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-buy-artwork-legally-eat-it)** > > The answer is: sometimes. But this doesn’t seem to cover the wedding cake. Because when you sell a wedding cake you know the customer is going to destroy it. If you’ve done a good job your customer will greatly enjoy ceremonially wrecking your cake, but your cake will be no more. To me, this seems like a lousy test case. I think a videographer would have had a better case, especially if they specialize in those “The Story of our Love” videos. But I really don’t see this and I think if the bakery wins it will open the door to a lot of other BS. Is my steak a custom work of art because the waiter asked me questions about how exactly I would like it cooked and the chef customized it for me? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/862 "2017-12-13T16:03:16Z")
But how would you rule on this if you think what is said is critical? The baker must bake the cake as long as there is no indication on the cake that it’s for a SSM? Can the courts really carve out (no pun intended) a distinction between: cake A is clearly not indicative of a SSM but cake B has some indication of being intended for SSM? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/863 "2017-12-13T16:12:49Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I think the real difficulty in this debate is confusion over how this baker designs and makes his cake. The baker’s brief claims that “Before designing [the cake], he meets with the couple to learn their desires, personalities, preferences, and wedding details.” But it provides no other detail over what that means. I find the baker’s argument glib. AIUI, these conversations usually go like: -What flavors do you like? -What will your colors be at your wedding? -Does the wedding have a theme? -How fancy do you want it? -How many people does it need to serve? -What kind of sexual behavior do you plan to engage in during your marriage? Wait, strike that last question. Also, strike these questions: -Is this your first marriage? -If not, how did your prior marriage(s) end? -How long have you known each other? -What church, if any, do you attend? -Did either of you grow up in households with divorce? In other words, while there is a lot of stuff that gets customized according to the couple, none of it relates to the nature of the marriage itself. It’s all about conforming the aesthetic of the cake to the other aesthetics of the wedding, and the logistics of the cake to the other logistics of the wedding. There is nothing about a same-sex couple that requires different artistic decisions from a het couple. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/864 "2017-12-13T16:15:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The baker must bake the cake as long as there is no indication on the cake that it’s for a SSM? I do find the question of a SSM-specific cake more difficult. To analogize, a baker who hates white people because he thinks we’re all racist may refuse to bake a cake with an image of Pepe the Frog on it–or even with an image of a white Disney Princess on it–but he may not refuse to bake a cake for a white family, if he would have baked exactly the same cake for a black family. He may not do so even if he claims that every cake he bakes is customized after a long conversation about the spiritual essence of the customer. (And here’s where Damuri presumably scolds me again for forgetting that race is a protected class under federal law; I’m not interested in revisiting that subject). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/865 "2017-12-13T16:27:58Z")
I don’t think it qualifies as scold to point out that the analogy doesn’t work since race and sexual orientation are not treated the same way at the federal level. I can’t imagine the Supremes granting sexual orientation anything higher than quasi-suspect class status, so even in the best case scenario, racial analogies don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/866 "2017-12-13T16:31:18Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No, I said “Sure, if that’s what they ordered”. Jeeesus:smack::rolleyes::dubious:. What if Trump ordered something really stunning. Can the portrait artist tell him that they will only make shitty paintings of Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/867 "2017-12-13T16:32:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think it qualifies as scold to point out that the analogy doesn’t work since race and sexual orientation are not treated the same way at the federal level. I can’t imagine the Supremes granting sexual orientation anything higher than quasi-suspect class status, so even in the best case scenario, racial analogies don’t work. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/868 "2017-12-13T16:48:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In other words, while there is a lot of stuff that gets customized according to the couple, none of it relates to the nature of the marriage itself. It’s all about conforming the aesthetic of the cake to the other aesthetics of the wedding, and the logistics of the cake to the other logistics of the wedding. There is nothing about a same-sex couple that requires different artistic decisions from a het couple. Maybe that’s true. It was certainly the case at my wedding (but then again, I didn’t spend hundreds on the cake). But, I was struck by the brief of [“Cake Artists in Support of Neither Party”](https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/supreme_court_preview/briefs-2017-2018/16-111-amicus-np-cake-artists.authcheckdam.pdf) (.pdf) when I read it. It shows cakes that appear to be very much tailored to the lives and experiences of the specific customers. The artistic decisions seems to depend heavily on the specific interests and backgrounds of the couple (including sexual orientation, as is clear from the rainbow themed cake the customers in this case ultimately obtained, but also a variety of other characteristics) I don’t know whether artistic expression should outweigh public accommodation laws, but I read that brief and I am convinced that wedding cakes can be, as the cake artists put it, “part of an artistic, expressive endeavor that generates works of art.” As I said, I don’t know if the baker in this case falls into this category, but I don’t view these bakers as Justice Breyer’s “artisans.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/869 "2017-12-13T16:50:24Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > What exactly is a “gay themed wedding cake”? What specific traits of the custom cake the couple was requesting made it “gay themed”? [This article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-asked-if-wedding-cake-bakers-case-protects-religious-freedom-or-illegal-discrimination/2017/12/05/c73e6efa-d969-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html?utm_term=.501193c9e7d8) seems to indicate that the refusal had nothing to do with the theme of the cake, but everything to do with the sexual orientation of the participants. What am I missing? Simply put he offered a service (custom wedding cakes) to everyone except gay couples. Colorado says he can’t do that. He says compelling him to bake cakes is a violation of freedom of expression. Couldn’t it then be argued that compelling architects to design buildings with emergency exits a violation of their freedom of expression? Who would buy that building design? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/870 "2017-12-13T17:01:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Who would buy that building design? I’m not sure that wedding cake design can be a life saving feature, but you never know! ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/871 "2017-12-13T17:04:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But how would you rule on this if you think what is said is critical? The baker must bake the cake as long as there is no indication on the cake that it’s for a SSM? Can the courts really carve out (no pun intended) a distinction between: cake A is clearly not indicative of a SSM but cake B has some indication of being intended for SSM? Try as I might, I can’t really think of any way in which a high-end wedding cake designed for a straight couple would differ from one designed for a gay couple. Except for maybe the topper. But if the bakery doesn’t carry same sex toppers, they could provide the cake without one and let the couple provide their own. It would be trivially easy for a gay couple to obtain a Masterpiece Bakery cake for their wedding no matter what the law says. Just have one of the brides or grooms go in to place the order with an opposite sex friend. Or go in alone or with their wedding planner. And if they do this, the cake they receive will still be perfect for their gay wedding. At most, they might need to remove or swap out the topper. No one at the ceremony will be saying “But that’s a straight wedding cake, what’s going on here? And if they did obtain the cake this way, the baker will not be damaged in any way. These are all arguments against the cake being a significant form of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/872 "2017-12-13T17:07:24Z")
In the end I hope the justices do find at least some protective status for sexual minorities. I think there is sufficient history of discrimination and abuse that it is warranted. I don’t know where that leaves us in this case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/873 "2017-12-13T17:07:56Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Try as I might, I can’t really think of any way in which a high-end wedding cake designed for a straight couple would differ from one designed for a gay couple. It sounds like the cake that this couple ultimate got had a rainbow on it. Is that normal for straight couples? I think it’s trivial to think of ways that a SSM cake design might differ from one for a straight couple. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/874 "2017-12-13T17:10:32Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Try as I might, I can’t really think of any way in which a high-end wedding cake designed for a straight couple would differ from one designed for a gay couple. Except for maybe the topper. But if the bakery doesn’t carry same sex toppers, they could provide the cake without one and let the couple provide their own. > > It would be trivially easy for a gay couple to obtain a Masterpiece Bakery cake for their wedding no matter what the law says. Just have one of the brides or grooms go in to place the order with an opposite sex friend. Or go in alone or with their wedding planner. > > And if they do this, the cake they receive will still be perfect for their gay wedding. At most, they might need to remove or swap out the topper. No one at the ceremony will be saying “But that’s a straight wedding cake, what’s going on here? And if they did obtain the cake this way, the baker will not be damaged in any way. > > These are all arguments against the cake being a significant form of speech. There were articles that mentioned rainbows. Not sure if that’s gay enough to trigger artistic expression objections. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/875 "2017-12-13T18:32:37Z")
It’s also quite possible the rainbow was chose specifically to thumb their noses at the baker and might not ever have been considered originally. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/876 "2017-12-13T18:39:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In the end I hope the justices do find at least some protective status for sexual minorities. I think there is sufficient history of discrimination and abuse that it is warranted. I don’t know where that leaves us in this case. That’s not really what is at issue here. Under Colorado law, businesses cannot discriminate against people based on sexual orientation. This case will define the boundaries of religous freedom and where religious freedom trumps civil rights laws. Given that very few people like God more than money, this isn’t actually going to be a problem beyond hurt feelings when you walk into a store that does actually have an owner who takes his scripture seriously. And then only when you want him to help you celebrate what he sees as your sinful behavior. Gay, African-American, Jewish, female, and disabled folks will continue to be able to eat out wherever they want, buy retail wherever they want, and get emergency medical attention wherever they want. The only thing they won’t be able to do is get custom services from the 1% of business owners who are religious outside of the four walls of their church. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/877 "2017-12-13T18:43:57Z")
A couple of generations ago, black people could go to restaurants whenever they wanted, too. Right? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/878 "2017-12-13T18:47:30Z")
They could not, which is why they needed a law. The Civil Rights law wasn’t passed because one out of 1000 times African-Americans went to an establishment they were chased out. It was passed because it was almost every establishment. Now there’s nothing wrong with passing a law preventing business owners from hurting people’s feelings. It’s just not enough of a compelling interest to survive strict scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/879 "2017-12-13T18:57:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Jeeesus:smack::rolleyes::dubious:. > > What if Trump ordered something really stunning. Can the portrait artist tell him that they will only make shitty paintings of Trump? Sure, so long as that policy applies to all customers. You may roll your eyes and smack your head over that if you like. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/880 "2017-12-13T19:00:34Z")
“I only make custom cakes consistent with my values” is a fairly broad policy. Should the other bakers have consented to the Leviticus quote on a cake? If one can reject something inconsistent with their values, another can too. It’s often been said by those against gay rights that gays want “Special rights”. Those who support gay rights call that nonsense. Yet in this case, gay rights supporters are defending the right of a baker to refuse a customer, while wanting to force another baker to serve a customer. That is what is known as “special protection”. Christians can be refused for any reason. Gays can never be refused for any reason. That’s not equal treatment. Either cake artists, tattoo artists, and painters have to take on all requests, or they can be selective. Pick one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=45)