# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/941 "2017-12-14T13:18:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, there is. And if you want to drill down to that layer of symbolism, I think my position is clear, but in case it’s not, here it is again: if the baker would refuse to bake the cake for a het couple, I have little problem with his refusal to bake the cake for a gay couple. If he has a policy of decorating with depictions of curved rainbows but not of rectangles colored in a rainbow fashion, a la the flag, that doesn’t particularly bother me. > > But refusing to bake a cake because of who’s asking for it? Not cool. I think we’re more or less on the same page. So far Tooth seems to be the only one that doesn’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/942 "2017-12-14T13:24:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > AFAICT, he offered them other cakes but not a custom wedding cake. > > I had read that the wedding cake was gay themed (something about a rainbow). > > So lets say that the famous artist that drew the famous Obama poster had painted a famous mural for Obama’s inaugural ball. Could we compel that same artist to paint a similar mural for Trump’s inaugural ball? > > You seem to be saying that the artist could be compelled to paint the Obama mural for the Trump inauguration but not a Trump mural. Is this right? > > That he couldn’t refuse to bake a cake for a protected class. Does the mural artist have a storefront or advertise his mural painting services? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/943 "2017-12-14T14:09:05Z")
The storefront could be a public accomodation. People are not public accomodations. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/944 "2017-12-14T14:12:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, there is. And if you want to drill down to that layer of symbolism, I think my position is clear, but in case it’s not, here it is again: if the baker would refuse to bake the cake for a het couple, I have little problem with his refusal to bake the cake for a gay couple. If he has a policy of decorating with depictions of curved rainbows but not of rectangles colored in a rainbow fashion, a la the flag, that doesn’t particularly bother me. > > But refusing to bake a cake because of who’s asking for it? Not cool. Yeah, that’s sort of my point too, before I was assaulted with irrelevant questions about paintings and my feelings. Discriminating against gay people then adding “in Jesus’ name” doesn’t turn bigotry into a religious practice. Going to mosque is a religious practice. Sitting Shiva is a religious practice. Doing whatever the hell you want and then saying “but I’m a Christian” to excuse it is not a religious practice. But I guess we’re outvoted on that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/945 "2017-12-14T14:25:26Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Yeah, that’s sort of my point too, before I was assaulted with irrelevant questions about paintings and my feelings. Discriminating against gay people then adding “in Jesus’ name” doesn’t turn bigotry into a religious practice. Going to mosque is a religious practice. Sitting Shiva is a religious practice. Doing whatever the hell you want and then saying “but I’m a Christian” to excuse it is not a religious practice. > > But I guess we’re outvoted on that. I think your problem is that you are confusing “exercise of religion” with “religious practice”, in some narrow sense of “practice” meaning something one does regularly. The Constitution protects them both, with the latter being a subset of the former. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/946 "2017-12-14T14:29:19Z")
That is exactly my position, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/947 "2017-12-14T14:43:42Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > That is exactly my position, thank you. So, you would not allow conscience objectors to opt out of being sent to war because of “sincerely held religious beliefs” that war is wrong? “Opting out of war” is not something one does on a regular basis, especially since people within the same religious tradition often disagree about whether or not participating in war is part of the religion’s belief system or not in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/948 "2017-12-14T14:54:19Z")
I would, because they’re not using their sincerely held religious beliefs to excuse their homophobia. I still wouldn’t consider it a religious practice, though. This has nothing to do with cakes for gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/949 "2017-12-14T15:00:33Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I would, because they’re not using their sincerely held religious beliefs to excuse their homophobia. I still wouldn’t consider it a religious practice, though. This has nothing to do with cakes for gay people. Is your proposed rule then, “No religious belief can excuse homophobia?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/950 "2017-12-14T15:03:57Z")
Oh, I see. So that wasn’t “exactly” your position then. Now, suppose a gay couple asks a Catholic priest to perform their wedding ceremony. Is the priest compelled to do so, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/951 "2017-12-14T15:05:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is your proposed rule then, “No religious belief can excuse homophobia?” No religious belief can justify homophobic business practices, yes. You sell a cake to me, you sell it to my gay cousin. How you feel is not important to me at that point. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/952 "2017-12-14T15:08:11Z")
But also, if he doesn’t have to sell it to you, then he also doesn’t have to sell it to your gay cousin. No one has special rights. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/953 "2017-12-14T15:15:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, I see. So that wasn’t “exactly” your position then. I’m glad you understand. Happy to clarify. > [@](#): > > Now, suppose a gay couple asks a Catholic priest to perform their wedding ceremony. Is the priest compelled to do so, in your view? Religious organizations aren’t public accommodations. If you’re hoping to fling imaginary situations at me until I crack, it won’t work. Flinging imaginary situations at me until I get fed up and leave this thread, on the other hand, has resulted in a stunning success. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/954 "2017-12-14T15:19:02Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’m glad you understand. Happy to clarify. > > Religious organizations aren’t public accommodations. If you’re hoping to fling imaginary situations at me until I crack, it won’t work. Flinging imaginary situations at me until I get fed up and leave this thread, on the other hand, has resulted in a stunning success. I think we’re done. It doesn’t look like the goalposts are ever going to be firmly planted in one place. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/955 "2017-12-14T15:20:54Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Does the mural artist have a storefront or advertise his mural painting services? He has a large studio loft on the second floor above a Best Buy from which he sells other artwork he has created but he makes custom artwork on commission and he has been getting a lot of this sort of work since he made his Obama poster public domain. There is a small sign in the window of his loft that says “art for sale - we do custom work too” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/956 "2017-12-14T15:30:21Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’m glad you understand. Happy to clarify. > > Religious organizations aren’t public accommodations. If you’re hoping to fling imaginary situations at me until I crack, it won’t work. Flinging imaginary situations at me until I get fed up and leave this thread, on the other hand, has resulted in a stunning success. I think we’re still waiting for the clarification. If religious organizations aren’t public accommodations, are the physical structures public accomodations? I me they are required to comply with the ADA, right? And you can’t keep blacks out, right? So if the church frequently rents out space for things like weddings, piano recitals, boy scout meetings and even bar mitzvahs and muslim mosque services. Do they also have to rent out their church for a gay wedding? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/957 "2017-12-14T15:35:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It sounds like the cake that this couple ultimate got had a rainbow on it. Is that normal for straight couples? > > I think it’s trivial to think of ways that a SSM cake design might differ from one for a straight couple. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There were articles that mentioned rainbows. Not sure if that’s gay enough to trigger artistic expression objections. The rainbow motif was what the couple decided on because they’d been turned away by Masterpiece. As I’ve mentioned several times, the baker never actually got to the point where he asked what design they wanted. He turned them away as soon as he found out it was a cake for a gay wedding; the specific speech act of designing the cake never came up. The problem was the venue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/958 "2017-12-14T15:40:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The rainbow motif was what the couple decided on because they’d been turned away by Masterpiece. As I’ve mentioned several times, the baker never actually got to the point where he asked what design they wanted. He turned them away as soon as he found out it was a cake for a gay wedding; the specific speech act of designing the cake never came up. The problem was the venue. Please be advised that I was responding to someone who posted: “Try as I might, I can’t really think of any way in which a high-end wedding cake designed for a straight couple would differ from one designed for a gay couple. Except for maybe the topper.” I was giving that person an example, so the fact that it was made “after the fact” in this case is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/959 "2017-12-14T15:43:18Z")
Fair enough. I was mostly responding to DA and the numerous people who think that there was discussion of a cake design in \*this \*case. From the Colorado [Court of Appeals’](http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/16-111-op-bel-colo-app.pdf) decision: > [@](#): > > In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips > declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs, but advising Craig and Mullins that he would be happy to make and sell them any other baked goods. Craig and Mullins promptly left Masterpiece without discussing with Phillips any details of their wedding cake. I no longer have access to the Colorado Commission on Civil Rights’ opinion, but it confirms that the cake design was never discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/960 "2017-12-14T16:43:53Z")
There are way too many rainbow wedding cake pictures on pinterest for me to believe they were all for lgbt weddings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=49)