# Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792 "2013-12-08T01:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1081 "2017-12-26T03:35:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I was speaking as a poster, and not a moderator. But you’ve been here how many years, and never noticed the forum description for GD? > > “For long-running discussions of the great questions of our time. This is also the place for religious debates and (if you feel you must) witnessing.” > > The forum was initially conceived for “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” type questions. Obviously, objective facts are welcome when they’re applicable, but the only forum here that’s specifically supposed to only be about factual matters is GQ. What, in your view as a poster then, is the substantive difference between IMHO and GD? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1082 "2017-12-26T04:01:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [My bolding]. Um, what? The couple were surprised to be turned away, by their own admission. My mistake. Seems I myself wound up believing one of the rumors instead of getting the facts. I definitely remember people claiming that they deliberately singled this guy out, and I guess I got that lumped into the group of things I knew for sure instead of things to check. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1083 "2017-12-28T22:12:25Z")
Tangentially relevant to this, but the Oregon Court of Appeals just upheld a fine against the bakery “Sweet Cakes by Melissa” after they refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple: [http://www.kptv.com/story/37153906/appeals-court-upholds-boli-decision-against-sweet-cakes-by-melissa-owners](http://www.kptv.com/story/37153906/appeals-court-upholds-boli-decision-against-sweet-cakes-by-melissa-owners) ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1084 "2018-06-04T14:30:48Z")
SCOTUS rules 7-2 for the baker in Masterpiece Cakeshop. Ruling is that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission was not neutral with respect to religion in this particular case. This narrow ruling does not foretell how cases raising similar constitutional claims might be decided. From the intro in the [SCOTUS decision](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_j4el.pdf) (pdf link): > [@](#): > > “Given all these considerations, it is proper to hold that whatever the outcome of some future controversy involving facts similar to these, the Commission’s actions here violated the Free Exercise Clause; and its order must be set aside.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1085 "2018-06-04T14:40:52Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > SCOTUS rules 7-2 for the baker in Masterpiece Cakeshop. Ruling is that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission was not neutral with respect to religion in this particular case. This narrow ruling does not foretell how cases raising similar constitutional claims might be decided. > > From the intro in the [SCOTUS decision](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_j4el.pdf) (pdf link): OK, please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that Kennedy’s decision boils down to “it sure seems like those commissioners were mean” and “this is what the commissioners were thinking, and it’s wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1086 "2018-06-04T14:55:26Z")
Still reading the opinion, but the Commission’s hostility (Kagan’s word) to religion was apparently the key issue. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1087 "2018-06-04T14:56:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > OK, please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that Kennedy’s decision boils down to “it sure seems like those commissioners were mean” and “this is what the commissioners were thinking, and it’s wrong”. To a point. Kennedy is saying that the Commissioners comments showed that the hearing was tainted by bias and the baker is entitled to an impartial hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1088 "2018-06-04T14:59:05Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > OK, please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that Kennedy’s decision boils down to “it sure seems like those commissioners were mean” and “this is what the commissioners were thinking, and it’s wrong”. It’s more a case of “this is what the commissioners said, and it doesn’t sound like they afforded the baker due process based on those comments.” As I said in the prediction thread: > [@2018 SCOTUS Predictions](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-scotus-predictions/813608/22): > > What a terrible decision. Completely punted on addressing the substantive issue even though it was squarely before the Court. > > Frankly, I would rather they had ruled for the baker on the merits of the First Amendment claim. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1089 "2018-06-04T15:13:40Z")
And so a Christian baker is rescued from almost certain persecution. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1090 "2018-06-04T15:16:58Z")
> **[In Narrow Opinion, Supreme Court Rules For Baker In Gay-Rights Case](https://www.npr.org/2018/06/04/605003519/supreme-court-decides-in-favor-of-baker-over-same-sex-couple-in-cake-shop-case)** > > The Supreme Court on Monday ruled that a local baker in Colorado was within his rights to refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex couple's wedding, but it did not go beyond this case. Nina Totenberg says the decision was very narrow and based on the justices thinking th baker had not been afforded due process due to the court’s antipathy towards religion. Justice Kennedy made a point of saying that a similar question with different details might be ruled a different way. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1091 "2018-06-04T15:45:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And so a Christian baker is rescued from almost certain persecution. :rolleyes: Not to mention rescued from being forced to leave his wife & kids and become gay. Seriously, AP Radio News just had a statement from the guy; he’s all, “Baking this would ruin my relationships with my wife and my kids but most of all my relationship with God!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1092 "2018-06-04T15:47:17Z")
Don’t care about his personal life. Here’s money, give cake. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1093 "2018-06-04T16:04:49Z")
I think that a gay wedding is a “thing” now is a far more important fact than the commercial implications thereof. In my own living memory, there was a time when it wasn’t legal to marry someone of a different “race”. (Square quotes to imply “whatever the fuck _that_ means”.) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1094 "2018-06-04T16:08:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*Really Not All That Bright \*\* > What a terrible decision. Completely punted on addressing the substantive issue even though it was squarely before the Court. > > Frankly, I would rather they had ruled for the baker on the merits of the First Amendment claim. Right, but that is a court’s duty. Decide the issue on non-Constitutional grounds if they can. (not that they always follow that “rule.”) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1095 "2018-06-04T16:10:51Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Right, but that is a court’s duty. Decide the issue on non-Constitutional grounds if they can. (not that they always follow that “rule.”) “Due process” is a constitutional issue. ---
**Author:** ![Bassman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bassman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bassman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1096 "2018-06-04T16:11:16Z")
The Court dodged the ultimate constitutional question, but I think one aspect of the arguments on that issue is misunderstood. The baker argued that compelling him to provide a custom wedding cake would violate his free-speech rights. He claimed he was unwilling to create a custom cake for a same-sex wedding because of his religious views. So, this case is often framed as a religious rights vs. gay rights issue. It seems to me that, to the free-speech argument, it is relevant that he denied service to the same-sex couple because they were seeking a cake for a gay wedding reception. I don’t see how the fact that his religious beliefs underlay that is relevant. IOW, if the baker was opposed to same-sex marriage for reasons other than religion, I don’t think it would change the case. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1097 "2018-06-04T16:14:15Z")
And now a Yahoo article is claiming that SCOTUS voted “narrowly.” 7-2 is not “narrowly.” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1098 "2018-06-04T16:15:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And now a Yahoo article is claiming that SCOTUS voted “narrowly.” > > 7-2 is not “narrowly.” Narrow in the context of legal decisions refers to how broad or narrow the holding is. In this case, the holding is narrow. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1099 "2018-06-04T16:15:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And now a Yahoo article is claiming that SCOTUS voted “narrowly.” > > 7-2 is not “narrowly.” The “narrowly” is a reference to the nature of the decision, NOT the numerical balance of the court. Edit: Ninja’ed by **Richard Parker**. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792/1100 "2018-06-04T16:16:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And now a Yahoo article is claiming that SCOTUS voted “narrowly.” > > 7-2 is not “narrowly.” They ruled narrowly. They didn’t vote narrowly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples/675792.md?page=56)