You do realize this doesn’t happen much these days because it’s generally against the law.
The bakery in question is near a big city, but it could just as easily have been somewhere with a captive market. In fact, urban versus rural attitudes to homosexuality being what they (generally) are, it’s even more likely to have happened in the middle of nowhere.
Apropos of the thread, and since I posted earlier…another one of my trans sisters just became unemployed for Christmas. It’s at a mom-and-pop department store, one that you can still find in small towns (where she lives).
She originally was hired as a male, transitioned on the job to lukewarm support from her employer, legally changed her name and gender, and went through the rest of the transition process. Her manager told her flat-out that the family which owns the store, Southern Baptists like he was, did NOT approved of my sister’s “lifestyle.” She was told several times to attend church, and when her church told her she was no longer welcome because of her transition, they told her it probably was a “gentle hint from God” that she was “on the wrong path.”
Her employer refused to recognize her name change, and wouldn’t until they were told that it might cause a Social Security audit of the store. So then they changed her name in the records, but forced her to wear a nametag with her old name on it. That lasted about two weeks until she filed a formal complaint, during which her store’s defense was “we ran out of nametags.” Unfortunately, she already had her female nametag, so that excuse didn’t fly.
Next she was told she was disallowed from wearing makeup and female jewelry on the job, even though she was now legally female on her state and federal IDs. Her state doesn’t allow birth certificate changes, so her manager said “be thankful we let you parade around in women’s clothes” and “stop complaining about all this other stuff.” She was later reprimanded for wearing a ring that looked “too female.”
A customer came in one day, who knew her as her male self, from her old church (from which she was ousted after her transition). This customer yelled and used profanity and said she was condemned to hell, and went so far as to call her an “out and proud pedo” in front of other customers and staff. Her manager not only did not throw the customer out, but told my sister “what do you expect when you dress like a woman? It’s what pedos do to trick kids into coming with them.” She was then banned from wearing female clothes on the job.
Eventually, Christmas came, and the store encouraged folks to wear something “a little festive.” She wore Frosty the Snowman earrings, purchased from her own store. She didn’t think they counted as women’s jewelry because a male co-worker wore the same pair, and was not reprimanded. She was then given a suspension for wearing women’s jewelry, and told “maybe you can come back in May or June if you straighten yourself out and stop this sex change stuff.” The next day, her manager, having sought counsel with the loving mercy of Christ, terminated her instead.
Her accounts of most events have been confirmed by two co-workers, in writing.
So I guess right-wingers have no trouble at all with the above employment drama. At a time when Americans should be pulling together and showing mercy and tolerance towards others, sorta like that guy, what’s his name…Jesus? preached - we have instead molecular biologists who work at 7-11. Engineers who work at Sears. Army Captains forced out of their career and now working as student nurses. Computer database administrators who now work as telemarketers. And many, many of my trans acquaintances who have no work at all.
Civil rights is not something you vote on, and my civil rights still exist no matter how many tracts you want to quote or mis-quote from Bronze Age goatherds. Until my people have the same Civil Rights protections as conferred on other minorities, tragedies like the above will continue to occur.
Well, that sucks - but imagine how much worse it would have been if she was forced to bake a cake!
More importantly, imagine how much worse it would be if that poor business owner were forced not to be such a complete shit.
No, one cannot, unless one also feels the same about blacks, women, and other protected classes.
The point you are missing, bldysabba, is what Der Trihs said: governments can err and force discrimination, but they can also reverse themselves with enough momentum and reduce discrimination. The free market, on the other hand, usually works only in one direction, and that is to discriminate. Any change they undergo takes an extremely long time and is often inconsistent
The only thing confusing here is how you found this forum to rant about your pet issue in a topic where it would be considered a hijack. There’s nothing odd or illegal at all about using civil rights as a reason to force the bakers from treating their customers equally. And there is no contradiction to have sensible limits on guns either
If you fail to see the difference between the scenario you posted and the OP, then your post is simply an appeal to get a “you go girl!, trans rights rulz!!!” rahter tan contributing to the debate.
You also seem confused about the meaning of “mercy and tolerance”, do check them up. Hint: they don’t mean “doing what Una thinks it’s right”. That Jesus guy you mention…read about Him and what He said. You seem to be confused on that too.
“Bronze Age goatherds”? Really? So can I go with “guys with their dick cut off” for MTF trans people? I imagine you were aiming for “100% scientific accuracy”.
Mercy: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm.
Tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with
Matthew 25:40:" “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’"
Luke 6:27-36: 27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Una was using the terms correctly and speaking of Jesus’s teachings correctly. Perhaps you should take your own advice on checking up on mercy and tolerance and reading about Him and what He said.
Aji, there were claims in this thread that the government not allowing marriage equality was “the worst discrimination currently”. That story shows that no, there are certainly a hell of a lot worse discrimination. If you had actually read the thread, you may be able to keep up next time.
Also, I am pretty sure tolerance doesn’t mean whatever the fuck you think it means. In fact, I’m pretty sure that Jesus never suggested to falsely call people pedophiles, but if that’s part of your religion, well…
What relevant difference do you see between a business owner choosing not to serve a customer and a business owner choosing not to continue employing an employee? In both cases, some folks are arguing that these decisions should have no government interference, should be resolved entirely through the free market. In obth cases, others are arguing that the government should prevent such contracts being opted against for bigoted reasons.
Why not? Your hatred and disgust of me personally and my people in general is something you’ve never held back from on this message board in many trans-related threads.
Thanks to at least three gentlemen at the time I post this who have kindly addressed the rest of your…post, I thankfully am not required to give it any more attention.
To be fair, the New Testament was mostly (purportedly) written by Iron Age fishermen, not Bronze Age goatherds.
Paul was a tent-maker. 
Granted, but I had the Old Testament in mind.
…this what I love about the SDMB. 
All right, everyone. Calm down, all of you.
Aji, you’re earning a warning for your attempt to read Una’s mind with your bit about her wanting to simply get support with her story. Address the post, not the poster. You should know that.
And let’s keep any further personal slams about religious affiliation or gender status to the barest minimum. It’s not too much to ask that posters keep such attacks out of their posts. In fact, it’s required.
Get me?
I think Una’s story illustrates that the strategy of waiting for society to change, and having government stay hands-off, has real victims. In her friend’s case, strong antidiscrimination laws would make a real difference–or, if her jurisdiction has them, will make a real difference. Her life will be changed by the presence or absence of those laws. If they don’t exist, things will be a lot worse for her than if they do exist.
Consider the alternative: whose life is made worse by the existence of those laws, and how?
The only answer I can come up with is that bigots find their existence made worse because they’re unable to harm people in accordance with their bigoted ideas. And I find it hard to shed many tears over that particular harm.
Is there some other harm that I’m not seeing?
Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit on “hostile work environment” grounds. This would be intolerable for any reason. I hope she has a good lawyer and takes these bozos to the cleaners.
To bring this back to a topic of the thread (the inadequacy of the free market in dealing with cases like this), what do you reckon would happen if some of the friends of the person in the story decided to try to stage some sort of public boycott of this department store, or picketed outside? Well, we don’t really have to guess - we have grade-A examples. The store would claim that its religious faith was being attacked, and every stupid bigot for miles around would come to show “solidarity”. See also: Chik-Fil-A. :mad: You see how this isn’t a good idea, guys? You see how reasonable antidiscrimination laws would have been helpful here?
On a slightly more tangential note, parts of this story remind me a lot of the “controversy” of trans women using the restroom, and how “harassed” some women feel by it, and how this ignores the very real fact that trans women are basically constantly given shit for trying to use the restroom of their correct gender. The whole issue is completely disgusting. I daresay that the free market isn’t about to solve this problem.
Why isn’t this a fairly straightfoward Title VII case? I mean, it doesn’t even have the complications of sexual orientation. At best (or worst? at weakest?), it’s plain old Price Waterhouse sex stereotyping; at strongest, it’s basic sex discrimination.