# Judge orders mother to learn English or else!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 18, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649 "2005-02-18T03:10:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/41 "2005-02-18T17:42:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> The problem is, the woman in question is in Tennessee. My in-laws are from Tennessee, so I’m down there quite frequently. _There are no ethnic enclaves in the area mentioned in the article_.
The article says that “Lebanon has become home to more than 1,200 foreign-born agricultural and manufacturing workers”. Isn’t 1200 enough to make an enclave?
This whole “gotta learn English!” thing is nearly as old as the country. Everyone’s always bitching that the immigrants du jour don’t speak English and, yet, every second-generation immigrant speaks English. Imagine that! Just fucking relax about it already. Have patience. They’ll learn, I promise!
And it’s **Latino**. “Hispanic” is going the way of “colored” in the pantheon of adverbs, m’kay?
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/42 "2005-02-18T17:43:15Z")
Very poorly presented story. Insufficient information is given to the reader, and it raises more questions than it answers.
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### Author:  [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/43 "2005-02-18T17:43:27Z")
> [@EleanorRigby](#):
>
> By not requiring her to speak English–aren’t we in fact limiting her to low wage, manual work?
“We” aren’t doing shit. She is an adult and has the opportunity(in the U.S. at least), to think for herself. If she wants to learn english, it’s her prerogative, not ours. She ought not be forced by ANY governmental agency or office to learn english(unless we’re talking about the INS for purposes of citizenship).
The US will become a multilingual society sooner or later, despite what some of the above posters have said. It is a foregone conclusion, honestly. Sure, it will be rough, and sure, it will bring all of the bigots out of the woodwork, but the bigots’ offspring will see the way.
And this, from a Liberal who speaks only English.
Sam
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### Author:  [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/44 "2005-02-18T18:51:04Z")
Here’s the [article](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=17&u=/latimests/learnenglishjudgetellsmoms) on Yahoo news.
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### Author:  [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/45 "2005-02-18T19:01:55Z")
I’m used to dealing with gas station attendents, grocery store employees, fast food employees, parking attendents, repairmen, and deliverymen (all basic staples of life) who don’t speak a word of English, and get no better or worse service than I would with a kid who speaks English natively. Big whoop.
I’ve never understood how English = Jingoism. Where does the anger and resentment come from? It’s certainly not from disenfranchisement.
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### Author:  [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/46 "2005-02-18T19:11:32Z")
I can understand some concerns, for example the children who weren’t enrolled in school, and whose mother didn’t even know how to use a vacuum cleaner because it was a new technology for her. I can also understand the need to know a language enough to get emergency instructions, and be able to follow medical instructions. I’m not sure if it’s Urban Myth or if it actually happened, but I heard about a woman that didn’t know English who was given a medication for something which was highly toxic and it was VERY important to take it correctly. She died of an overdose, because the medicine bottle said “Once a day” but in Spanish “once” is eleven. I don’t know if what the judge is doing is the best way to help these people out though.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/47 "2005-02-18T19:16:57Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> Just where would you build your tower of bable?
You are such a dumbass.
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### Author:  [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/48 "2005-02-18T19:24:45Z")
> [@GaWd](#):
>
> “We” aren’t doing shit. She is an adult and has the opportunity(in the U.S. at least), to think for herself. If she wants to learn english, it’s her prerogative, not ours. She ought not be forced by ANY governmental agency or office to learn english(unless we’re talking about the INS for purposes of citizenship).
>
> The US will become a multilingual society sooner or later, despite what some of the above posters have said. It is a foregone conclusion, honestly. Sure, it will be rough, and sure, it will bring all of the bigots out of the woodwork, but the bigots’ offspring will see the way.
>
> And this, from a Liberal who speaks only English.
>
> Sam
So Americans who don’t want to learn another language are bigots.
But immigrants who move to another country and don’t want to learn another language are merely adults with perogatives?
Why is it such a terrible thing to ask people who VOLUNTARILY to move to another country to learn the predominate language spoken in that country?
Anyone immigrating ought to learn the basics of the English language within a reasonable time frame or they should leave.
That’s a demand for common sense and courtesy, not bigotry.
---
### Author:  [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/49 "2005-02-18T19:27:06Z")
Re-reading the article, I have to say that I don’t believe the judge is going about this the right way. He gave one woman six months to reach a 4th grade level of English! I agree with this paragraph of the article,
> [@](#):
>
> “She probably doesn’t have a sixth-grade education. I daresay the judge himself, an educated man, could not learn to speak Spanish to a fourth-grade level in six months,” Gonzalez said. “He gave her an impossible task.”
He gave her that task, instead of the counseling she requested so she could repair her relationship with her daughter.
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/50 "2005-02-18T19:35:01Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#):
>
> So Americans who don’t want to learn another language are bigots.
Pardon? Where on earth did anyone say that anyone had to learn another language? Everyone ingored you when you made this moronic strawman earlier, I’m addressing it now in the hopes (probably way too optimistic) that you won’t repeat it.
> [@](#):
>
> But immigrants who move to another country and don’t want to learn another language are merely adults with perogatives?
Correct, just as you have the prerogative not to learn their language. Isn’t living in a free country wonderful?
> [@](#):
>
> Anyone immigrating ought to learn the basics of the English language within a reasonable time frame or they should leave.
Nope. If they can get by without learning English, more power to them.
> [@](#):
>
> That’s a demand for common sense and courtesy, not bigotry.
If they don’t need to learn English to go about their daily lives, then they shouldn’t have to learn it if they don’t want to. They don’t owe you squat.
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### Author:  [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/51 "2005-02-18T19:54:46Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> But I happen to believe that if you want to live and thrive in America, citizen or not…you should speak english.
And you would be wrong. Come visit Chinatown (any one of our three) or North Beach or the Richmond or parts of the Tenderloin.
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### Author:  [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/52 "2005-02-18T20:10:10Z")
> [@Neurotik](#):
>
> Pardon? Where on earth did anyone say that anyone had to learn another language? Everyone ingored you when you made this moronic strawman earlier, I’m addressing it now in the hopes (probably way too optimistic) that you won’t repeat it.
Maybe I read the thread?
> [@GaWd](#):
>
> The US will become a multilingual society sooner or later, despite what some of the above posters have said.
> [@Stranger On A Train](#):
>
> Americans would be better off (or at least better able to relate to the rest of the world) if we learned to speak a language in addition to English.
> [@Neurotik](#):
>
> Correct, just as you have the prerogative not to learn their language. Isn’t living in a free country wonderful?
And what if we have to communicate, what then? Do I have to hire an interpreter? That’s not a hypothetical situation. I’ve stopped ordering from a restaurant because they hire people to answer the phone who barely speak any English and constantly get orders wrong. My mother teaches in a inner city and regularly runs into problems communicating with her student’s parents.
It’s not wonderful when a restaurant loses business or a child suffers because her teacher has trouble communicating with her parents.
> [@](#):
>
> Nope. If they can get by without learning English, more power to them.
Not knowing the language where you live isn’t power at all.
I used to live next door to a woman who hired a babysitter who only spoke Russian. At one point the woman’s child was nearly removed by the police because the babysitter couldn’t communicate with the police. I had to track down my next door neighbor so she could protect her children. The two of them were the only Russian speakers in the neighborhood.
> [@](#):
>
> If they don’t need to learn English to go about their daily lives, then they shouldn’t have to learn it if they don’t want to. They don’t owe you squat.
Actually I’m fairly sure it does since you can’t live here forever. At some point you will need to apply for citizenship. To qualify you need to learn English.
Taking the attitude that it really doesn’t matter if an immigrant learns English is naive. Of course it matters.
If I moved to another country I would take basic language classes before I moved. I’d also be grateful for the opportunity to immerse myself in another language.
The judge is just trying to help this woman make her life easier. It may not be politically correct but it’s certainly true.
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### Author:  [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/53 "2005-02-18T20:16:02Z")
> [@andros](#):
>
> Ok, granted the guy might be an idiot.
>
> But she was neglecting her child because she cannot speak English in an English-speaking area.
>
> One option would be to ensure that the entire county goes bilingual. Another would be to ensure the mother speaks English. I don’t see how the latter is all that evil.
I dunno about that…my dad grew up in a Polish neighborhood, and most of the old folks never learned how to speak English. Their kids did just fine. In fact, my old roommate’s ex spoke only Spanish. Their child was bi-lingual by the age of five. It was definitely a plus for him!
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/54 "2005-02-18T20:32:11Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#):
>
> Maybe I read the thread?
:rolleyes:
Regarding the first quote, yes, the US will likely become a multi-lingual society. Heck, it already is. Still doesn’t mean you’re going to be required to speak it. Just about everyone will still speak English, so you would still get by with no other language skills and live comfortably. Just more and more people are going to become fluent in more than one language. That’s a good thing, IMO.
Regarding the second quote, you would be better off learning another language. Studies show that people who pick up another language show improvements in academic achievement and general problem solving skills. Quite frankly, learning another language is just a part of being well educated. Everyone would be better off being better educated, IMO.
Nobody’s expecting you to learn another language, some people said you’d probably be better off if you did. And it’s true. You would be.
> [@](#):
>
> Not knowing the language where you live isn’t power at all.
No, it’s not. It’s a dumb choice. But if someone decides they want to make that choice, I have no problem with it.
> [@](#):
>
> Actually I’m fairly sure it does since you can’t live here forever. At some point you will need to apply for citizenship. To qualify you need to learn English.
Not always. There are exceptions for older people. But yes, you need to learn a few simple words and phrases. You don’t have to be fluent or have to be able to carry on a conversation.
> [@](#):
>
> Taking the attitude that it really doesn’t matter if an immigrant learns English is naive. Of course it matters.
It matters to them, not to me. It’s none of my business, other than to be sure they have the opportunities to do so if they wish. Whether they decide it’s worth it to them is their decision.
> [@](#):
>
> If I moved to another country I would take basic language classes before I moved. I’d also be grateful for the opportunity to immerse myself in another language.
As would I. Indeed, I wouldn’t even wait to move to another country to learn another language (in fact, I didn’t). So what?
> [@](#):
>
> The judge is just trying to help this woman make her life easier. It may not be politically correct but it’s certainly true.
It’s not the judge’s job to make her life easier. He’s not her mom. It’s the judge’s job to enforce and interpret the law.
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### Author:  [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/55 "2005-02-18T20:47:29Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#):
>
> By not requiring her to speak English–aren’t we in fact limiting her to low wage, manual work?
Yes. And that is one of the major objections to bilingual education in the public schools. Whether we like the idea or not, if someone cannot speak, read and write English, it will be incredibly difficult for them to be successful in America. At best, they will get by. If they are successful, I’ll bet there is someone close to them who can translate for them.
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### Author:  [@CRich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CRich)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/56 "2005-02-18T20:57:52Z")
It used to be that the bar for removing a child from his/her home was set really high–there needed to be the substantial risk of serious harm before you took them away from their family. Now, apparently, Mom not having had the foresight to have enrolled in “English for Dummies” before she left Mexico is good enough to take her child away?
I mean, I understand a certain amount of frustration over immigrants who can’t speak English, but what’s next? We remove kids from immigrant families who serve weird ethnic foods? 'Cause you know all that lard in the tamales is hell on the arteries, better put the kid in foster care. Where we KNOW he/she will be well cared for. Yeah right. Foster care is supposed to be the avenue of last resort–not a means to force immigrants to assimilate more quickly.
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### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/57 "2005-02-18T21:00:28Z")
> [@Manda JO](#):
>
> Yes, but in all those cases, it took one or two generations, which is exactly what it happening now with hispanic immigrants. I teach in Dallas, and I see this same pattern over and over and over again: first generation rarely gets past the most basic English; second generation is blingual, third generation can understand their grandparents but not really talk to them about anything complex. Fourth generatoin is irritated at all these immigrants who can’t learn English.
Exactly. The third generation of an immigrant group in the U.S. is English dominant - it was that way with Europeans a hundred years ago, and it’s that way with Spanish-speakers. I don’t understand the furor here; I think if immigrants don’t choose to learn English, they shouldn’t have to - and it’s not as though this is exactly a new situation. Besides, what opportunities exist for impoverished adults to study a language? How is the woman expected to learn it?
Over 10% of Americans speak Spanish, and that number is going to increase. It’s time that Americans make peace with the fact that our country is a bilingual country, like the vast majority of countries on earth. I can’t imagine the urge to bar the country against anyone who doesn’t speak English. I think part of the country’s strength comes from having a mix of cultures.
> [@booka](#):
>
> Talk about it all day if you want, but the realities are clear.
>
> The U.S. will not officially become bilingual.
>
> Either learn English, or in general, be at a perpetual disadvantage.
Firstly, it may well become bilingual one day. It’s unclear whether the rate of assimilation into the English language community is outpacing births and immigration among Spanish-speakers, but we may well find ourselves living in a country with a large Spanish-speaking population. And I for one don’t find that threatening.
Secondly, when has “it’s good for you” ever been held as a acceptable reason for the government to bring its power to bear before? Our government doesn’t necessarily hold our hands and encourage us to make the right decisions. Why should it? I thought this country valued personal freedoms.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/58 "2005-02-18T21:09:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The article says that “Lebanon has become home to more than 1,200 foreign-born agricultural and manufacturing workers”. Isn’t 1200 enough to make an enclave?
Considering that Lebanon is already a small town, there is definitely an enclave. This town is about 30 to 40 minutes outside of Nashville which has a huge Hispanic population also. There are signs in my neighborhood that are completely in Spanish. (There is also one grocery store with signs out front in nine languages, I think.)
It also bothers me that the judge ordered one woman to use birth control. What if she is Catholic?
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### Author:  [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/59 "2005-02-18T22:24:35Z")
> [@Neurotik](#):
>
> :rolleyes:
>
> Regarding the first quote, yes, the US will likely become a multi-lingual society. Heck, it already is. Still doesn’t mean you’re going to be required to speak it. Just about everyone will still speak English, so you would still get by with no other language skills and live comfortably. Just more and more people are going to become fluent in more than one language. That’s a good thing, IMO.
Not necessarily. Immigration has been going on since the founding of the country yet most Americans still speak one language.
> [@](#):
>
> Regarding the second quote, you would be better off learning another language. Studies show that people who pick up another language show improvements in academic achievement and general problem solving skills. Quite frankly, learning another language is just a part of being well educated. Everyone would be better off being better educated, IMO.
Then what’s so terrible about requiring immigrants – those most in need of another language – to learn another language?
> [@](#):
>
> Nobody’s expecting you to learn another language, some people said you’d probably be better off if you did. And it’s true. You would be.
Then how am I to communicate with someone who doesn’t speak English? Hire an interpreter?
> [@](#):
>
> No, it’s not. It’s a dumb choice. But if someone decides they want to make that choice, I have no problem with it.
Well I have a problem. I expect that you if move here you will learn English either before you get here or as soon as possible afterwards. It makes it easier for you and most other people living here. I don’t expect you to be totally fluent but at least make the effort.
> [@](#):
>
> Not always. There are exceptions for older people. But yes, you need to learn a few simple words and phrases. You don’t have to be fluent or have to be able to carry on a conversation.
I have a friend who is a naturalized citizen. She said she was required to show command of basic English first.
> [@](#):
>
> It matters to them, not to me. It’s none of my business, other than to be sure they have the opportunities to do so if they wish. Whether they decide it’s worth it to them is their decision.
When it intrudes on my ability to get things done it darned well is my business.
> [@](#):
>
> As would I. Indeed, I wouldn’t even wait to move to another country to learn another language (in fact, I didn’t). So what?
>
> It’s not the judge’s job to make her life easier. He’s not her mom. It’s the judge’s job to enforce and interpret the law.
I don’t think he should have ordered her into English classes. I do think immigrants should be required to show basic English language skills within a reasonable time frame if they’ve made the choice to immigrate here. That should be the law.
I have no problem with him attempting to get her face reality. Reality means that her life will face restrictions if she fails to master basic English. The judge isn’t bigot. He’s a little misguided but he’s clearly just trying to help this woman and protect her child.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-orders-mother-to-learn-english-or-else/290649/60 "2005-02-18T22:25:41Z")
Wait a sec–this is one of them _activist judges,_ idn’t it? I thought they’s all libruls. Thought that about Reeder, too, though. 😃
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