# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/1 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")
> **[What to know about the battle over Wisconsin health care workers now playing...](https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/)** > > ThedaCare pursued legal action to prevent seven health care workers in Wisconsin from starting a new job at a nearby hospital. So a judge has ordered 7 employees at a hospital from quitting and working their new jobs. The employees were at-will, so they could have been fired without notice and they can quit without notice. Interestingly, some of them asked their former employers to match the new offers and the employer refused. It seems to me that if you’re not willing to pay them to stay, then they should have the right to leave. The flip side is it would have negative health consequences for patients. Personally, I side with the workers on this one. If you’re employing somebody where if they leave suddenly it would have such a catastrophic effect, then maybe you shouldn’t be employing them at-will. Additionally, if they are that valuable maybe the employer should be doing more to try to match the new offers. Any thoughts on this one Teeming Masses? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/2 "2022-01-22T14:01:19Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > So a judge has ordered 7 employees at a hospital from quitting and working their new jobs - Looks like slavery is making a return. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/3 "2022-01-22T14:04:31Z")
Didn’t we, as running\_coach noted, fight a war over this? It’s unenforceable at any rate. You can’t MAKE someone work. “I’m sick. I’m staying home. Pay me.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/4 "2022-01-22T14:04:57Z")
It sounds insane to me. But they got a judge to step in, at least temporarily. _It’s a legal matter, baby_ _A legal matter from now on_ ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/5 "2022-01-22T14:24:40Z")
From the linked story. > In the complaint, ThedaCare attorneys wrote that the organization found out Dec. 21 that four interventional radiology technicians had accepted offers with Ascension, and learned Dec. 29 that two nurses planned to make the same move. On Jan. 7, they learned one additional nurse planned to quit and work at Ascension. > > Ascension had offered the employees a better benefits package that ThedaCare did not match, Muth said. They had a month to solve the problem yet their only solution was to get the courts to take sides against another competitor. (And no contract to enforce) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/6 "2022-01-22T14:24:49Z")
It’s unfortunate the journalist here did not inquire into and report on the legal basis for the decision. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/7 "2022-01-22T14:25:35Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > It’s unfortunate the journalist here did not inquire into and report on the legal basis for the decision. - Which was? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/8 "2022-01-22T14:26:10Z")
I had opened an FQ thread (closed now) about just that. I mean doesn’t a judge have to you know follow the law? I don’t understand how this decision can be legal even if only temporary. How can a judge order you to work for a company especially in an at-will state? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/9 "2022-01-22T14:29:29Z")
I’ll take the side of the employees here, and assume the courts will eventually come to their senses. My daughter is a nurse, her husband a doctor. Several times during the ongoing pandemic they’ve threatened to quit. Their demands were met each time. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/10 "2022-01-22T14:29:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > > > It’s unfortunate the journalist here did not inquire into and report on the legal basis for the decision. - > > Which was? I assumed @ASL_v2.0 was genuinely asking. I’d likewise like to know specifically how the judge ruled and what was the legal basis. Maybe Wisconsin has some sort of statute that would allow this. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/11 "2022-01-22T14:32:42Z")
Again from the article. > One of his colleagues received an offer from Ascension that was attractive “not just in pay but also a better work/life balance,” which caused others on his team to apply, Breister wrote. > > After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they’d been given, **Breister wrote that they were told “the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost,” and no counter-offer would be made.** > Why match the offer when you can get the courts to interfere? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/12 "2022-01-22T14:36:36Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Which was? That’s the thing. I have no idea. Because the article doesn’t really delve into it. For all I know, Wisconsin has some statute that may be relevant to maintaining essential services during a state of emergency. Maybe the basis is somewhere _in_ one of the many emergency orders related to the pandemic, although nothing jumps out at me from a quick google search. Or maybe the judge is just playing by his own rules—but somehow I doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/13 "2022-01-22T14:36:57Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > How can a judge order you to work for a company especially in an at-will state? According to the article they’re not being ordered to work at the old company, they’re being barred from beginning work at the new company. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/14 "2022-01-22T14:37:27Z")
I, too, wonder what possible basis this has in US law. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/15 "2022-01-22T14:38:34Z")
That’s true but that makes even less sense. If the problem is that them not working for their old employers will cause a disruption to healthcare, then how does preventing them from working for their new employers help. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/16 "2022-01-22T14:45:32Z")
Could there possibly be a non-compete clause? I know you said at-will, but that doesn’t mean there is no contract. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/17 "2022-01-22T14:47:16Z")
As I read these articles, the hospital losing the employees sought an injunction to delay the transfer until they could find replacements. So, the legal theory is based on a request for an injunction - there will be an imminent harm if something happens, so the court should stop that thing. At present, it appears that the judge granted the temporary injunction, but wants the parties to resolve this. > [@](#): > > ThedaCare requested Thursday that an Outagamie County judge temporarily block seven of its employees who had applied for and accepted jobs at Ascension from beginning work there on Monday until the health system could find replacements for them… > > Outagamie County Circuit Court Judge Mark McGinnis granted ThedaCare’s request and held an initial hearing Friday morning. The case will get a longer hearing at 10 a.m. Monday… > > McGinnis told lawyers for both health systems they should try to work out a temporary agreement by the end of the day Friday about the employees’ status until Monday’s hearing. > > “To me, that is a poor result for everyone involved,” McGinnis said. Ultimately, though, this would not be a case of preventing these people from taking these new jobs, but waiting to do so until their jobs at the old hospital are covered by others. (Now, I am sensitive to the fact that the hospital did have notice of these changes, and these are at will employees who should be able to decide where they work. But, the legal rationale is based on the concept of enjoining harmful conduct) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/18 "2022-01-22T14:49:37Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Ultimately, though, this would not be a case of preventing these people from taking these new jobs, but waiting to do so until their jobs at the old hospital are covered by others. - And will the judge establish a deadline for when the old hospital must fill the positions? As I noted upthread, Thedacare said there was no long term benefit to meeting the demands. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/19 "2022-01-22T14:52:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And will the judge establish a deadline for when the old hospital must fill the positions? The hospital is apparently requesting 90 days. > [@](#): > > ThedaCare filed for a temporary injunction Thursday, which would halt the employees’ move to Ascension for 90 days to give ThedaCare time to look for replacement staff. > > Without more time, ThedaCare leaders say they could struggle to treat trauma and stroke patients locally, which could mean sending a severely injured person hours away before they can get care. ThedaCare’s Neenah hospital is the [only Level II trauma center](https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/trauma/counties.htm) — which can provide higher levels of care for traumatic injuries — between Green Bay and the Milwaukee area. [CITE](https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/6595232001) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/20 "2022-01-22T14:54:01Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > At present, it appears that the judge granted the temporary injunction, but wants the parties to resolve this. That is the legal tool the judge as employed, and he expresses the rationale of something like imminent harm/risk to patients, but nothing explains the legal basis for the judge to do that here. The mere fact that an employer may be harmed by losing an employee does not provide a legal cause to grant an injunction against that employee. There as to be something more. Some relevant factors may be (speculating here): 1. This involves healthcare 2. IIRC, the current employer is in some way part of a government-funded/contracted health system (again, that’s IIRC) 3. There is a pandemic and there may have been a relevant emergency order pertaining to employment of healthcare workers. 4. Maybe there is, as you posit, a non-compete clause 5. Maybe there’s a contractual relationship between old and new (prospective) employer. 6. ? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=2)