# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/221 "2022-01-23T23:47:49Z")
I’m not seeing how any resulting deaths can be laid at the feet of the employees. Surely there’s a well paid staffing admin somewhere in this organization. Isn’t that where responsibility for any resulting disasters truly belongs? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/222 "2022-01-23T23:49:40Z")
But the judge didn’t force them to continue working for ThedaCare. So they won’t be on the job preventing anyone’s death. With that in mind, what was the purpose of the TRO? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/223 "2022-01-23T23:52:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > We are talking about people making the same money that they always have vs. people dying. Which side do you err on? No we aren’t: the TRO doesn’t keep them employed at ThedaCare; it only prevents them from being employed by Ascension. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/224 "2022-01-23T23:53:48Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I’m not seeing how any resulting deaths can be laid at the feet of the employees. Surely there’s a well paid staffing admin somewhere in this organization. “You can quit at will; here’s how much we’ll pay.” “If you pay me more, I’ll give six months’ notice.” ”An intriguing proposition! Well, thanks; but _no_.” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/225 "2022-01-23T23:56:38Z")
Probably more along the lines of “Let’s keep the status quo as-is, until we can sort this out on Monday.” than anything else. It’s probably a lot easier to sort it out from the status quo, rather than having to walk stuff back and/or determine damages, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/226 "2022-01-24T01:01:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do the patients who may die due to staffing shortages have any rights? Hospitals transport patients all the time to other hospitals due to shortages or specialized care. It’s not like a surgeon is walking out in the middle of an operation. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/227 "2022-01-24T02:33:10Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > > [@eschrodinger](#): > > > > ThedaCare asked for the status quo to be preserved, and have accused Ascension of wrongdoing in hiring away the entire staff of a highly specialized unit. It’s at least plausible that Ascension did so not just with the intention of benefitting themselves, but also of harming a competitor. > > Even if Ascension _did_ intend to harm ThedaCare, would that be illegal? It could be actionable in certain circumstances. It’s not an area I’m very familiar with, but I’m talking about what ThedaCare could have alleged. I think it’s actionable if a company, for example, contacted an entire crucial unit staff of a competitor and offered them jobs at higher than market rates in order to damage the competitor. And the company doing that could potentially be enjoined from actually employing the employees in question if they engaged in unlawful practices to hire them. I agree that the employees are caught in the middle, which is a reflection of inequity built into the system. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/228 "2022-01-24T02:38:55Z")
Key words there being “in order to damage the competitor”. If they did it just because they, themselves, needed more skilled personnel, then that’s just fine. And it’s both very unlikely that it was done deliberately to damage ThedaCare, and even if true, very difficult to prove. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/229 "2022-01-24T02:40:28Z")
Yes. Again, I’m talking about what could have been alleged. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/230 "2022-01-24T03:16:22Z")
As was pointed out upthread this was fast-tracked by the judge. I would expect some kind of legal come-to-Jesus-meeting with the plaintiff’s lawyers tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/231 "2022-01-24T03:44:41Z")
The employees are not held in forced servitude. The employees are not entrapped. They can quit. They can go to work for any other hospital. They can move. Nor has the judge made a final decision. There there is this: _What is the main definition of slavery?_ _slavery, **condition in which one human being was owned by another**. A slave was considered by law as property, or chattel, and was deprived of most of the rights ordinarily held by free persons._ and this: > **[Slavery | Definition, History, & Facts](https://www.britannica.com/topic/slavery-sociology)** > > slavery, condition in which one human being was owned by another. A slave was considered by law as property, or chattel, and was deprived of most of the rights ordinarily held by free persons. There is no consensus on what a slave was or on how the... **slavery** , condition in which one [human being]_([Human being | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/human-being)) was owned by another. A slave was considered by [law](https://www.britannica.com/topic/law) as property, or [chattel](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chattel), and was deprived of most of the rights ordinarily held by free persons._ The hyberbolic of comparing anything to slavery weakens the real evil of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/232 "2022-01-24T04:02:55Z")
I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/233 "2022-01-24T11:55:44Z")
Is there any indication of when, on Monday, the injunction is over? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/234 "2022-01-24T12:00:13Z")
**A mod Nudging** : You’ve made your point on this, please ensure we have no more posts about the meaning of the word slave. That would be for a new topic if you wish to continue it. I’ll add a note not to reply to your post either for others. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record of course._ ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/235 "2022-01-24T14:02:11Z")
According to the article, the injunction does not have an expiration date but the judge scheduled a hearing for 10:00 this morning. I would be shocked if he did not revisit the injunction based on what’s presented at that hearing. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/236 "2022-01-24T15:04:53Z")
Over the weekend I chatted a bit with my daughter about this case. She’s been involved in discussions on nursing boards, where the topic is blowing up. She tells me ThedaCare is going to be harmed in the long run by this action. Nurses are going to shy away from accepting employment with a hospital that takes actions like they have. She predicts at least a small exodus from ThedaCare. As to her own thoughts, if she were told she couldn’t accept a job offer she would take a sabbatical from working for awhile. She’s her dads daughter! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/237 "2022-01-24T15:07:24Z")
Yep, the order doesn’t apply to them. I’d expect a lot of “calling in sick” this week. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/238 "2022-01-24T15:16:15Z")
> **Off-topic bit that mod instructed to drop** > > > [@running\_coach](#): > > > > Looks like slavery is making a return. > > Well technically its feudalism. Two lords are quarreling over one poaching their serfs. What you think you can just up sticks from Sun Valley and go work for lord Ascension? That would be very inconvenient to Lord Thetacare, we are in the middle of a staffing crisis due to the recent plague, I will appeal to the king! But seriously wtf? ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/239 "2022-01-24T16:07:31Z")
I’ve been monitoring the internets for an update. I’ve not found anything yet. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/240 "2022-01-24T16:12:10Z")
Wisconsin is Central Standard, and it’s just 10:10 am there, so the hearing will have just started. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=13)