# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/363 "2022-01-27T20:08:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > demonstrated a substantial likelihood of success on the merits ThedaCare argues in it’s pleadings that “a reasonable likelihood of success on the merits” is the WI standard. Further the irreparability of harm is a strong factor in the calculus as well. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/364 "2022-01-27T21:54:42Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I thought Curt Flood settled this years ago. Curt Flood lost. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/365 "2022-01-27T23:26:59Z")
I’m very curious as to what the judge will do with regards to the lawsuit itself. I wonder if he’ll actually allow it to move forward. I read the complaint again, and I just can’t see any merit there. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/366 "2022-01-28T00:12:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > ThedaCare argues in it’s pleadings that “a reasonable likelihood of success on the merits” is the WI standard. Further the irreparability of harm is a strong factor in the calculus as well. What is the “reasonable likelihood of success” in at at-will state? I understand tortious interference with contract, but if an employee can quit on a moment’s notice, how is it tortious interference if another employer says, “We’ll hire you at a better wage?” From my perspective, the only legally actionable thingI saw in that claim was an allegation of tortious interference. And I don’t think Theda Care’s lawyers were doing their client any favour by repeatedly saying that Ascension was “poaching” Theda Care’s employees. “Poaching” refers to ducks, and geese, and fish. But I guess Theda Care equates it’s peons to animals. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/367 "2022-01-28T00:17:39Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And I don’t think Theda Care’s lawyers were doing their client any favour by repeatedly saying that Ascension was “poaching” Theda Care’s employees. “Poaching” refers to ducks, and geese, and fish. But I guess Theda Care equates it’s peons to animals. It’s been called poaching since forever. Beats all hell out of a related term, headhunting. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/368 "2022-01-28T00:46:06Z")
Maybe informally, but in a legal pleading, my reaction is “So you own these creatures, do you?” ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/369 "2022-01-28T01:08:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What is the “reasonable likelihood of success” in at at-will state? I understand tortious interference with contract, but if an employee can quit on a moment’s notice, how is it tortious interference if another employer says, “We’ll hire you at a better wage?” That is what made me think the judge was probably wrong to issue the temporary injunction in the first place. I thought if they alleged a claim relating to Ascension being out to harm ThedaCare, and could find an appropriate legal vehicle to shoehorn it into, I would not blame the judge for wanting to pause the status quo and hold a hearing on Monday. But in the memorandum and the complaint, all I see is tortious interference with contract, but no allegation of any contract term, or how making an offer of employment interfered with any contract. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/370 "2022-01-28T01:35:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “Poaching” refers to ducks, and geese, and fish. But I guess Theda Care equates it’s peons to animals. [If you got a problem with Canada Gooses then you got a problem with me and I suggest you let that one marinate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oK4Q5G1asI) > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > It’s been called poaching since forever. Beats all hell out of a related term, headhunting. It’s always funny to me that corporate speak is either the most bland incomprehensible garbage on earth, or it’s something like “headhunting” or “vulturing”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/371 "2022-01-28T09:24:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@UltraVires](#): > > > > ThedaCare argues in it’s pleadings that “a reasonable likelihood of success on the merits” is the WI standard. Further the irreparability of harm is a strong factor in the calculus as well. > > What is the “reasonable likelihood of success” in at at-will state? I understand tortious interference with contract, but if an employee can quit on a moment’s notice, how is it tortious interference if another employer says, “We’ll hire you at a better wage?” Did you read [Ascensions’ brief](https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/ascensionbriefjan24.pdf) (linked by @ctnguy above) against the TRO? I would be interested in your and other attorneys’ takes on it. > [@](#): > > The sole count in ThedaCare’s complaint is that Ascension tortiously interfered with its prospective contractual relationships with at-will employees. To succeed on a tortious interference claim the plaintiff must establish five elements: (1) the plaintiff had an actual or prospective contractual relationship with a third party; (2) the defendant interfered with that relationship; (3) the defendant’s interference was intentional; (4) there was a causal connection between the interference and damages; and (5) the defendant was not justified or privileged to interfere. It goes through and demonstrates (at least to this non-attorney’s eyes) how ThedaCare would not likely be able to succeed. It also addresses the question of harm and that sufficient remedies were available to ThedaCare already, just at a higher cost. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/372 "2022-01-28T10:05:41Z")
That’s what I appreciates about you, DeadTreasSecretaries ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/373 "2022-01-28T13:56:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Curt Flood lost. He lost, but MLB players won because, no pun intended, he opened the flood gates that lead to the eventual decision that allowed players to become free agents. Someone had to be the first, or it never would have happened, that’s why many give him the credit for making it all happen. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/374 "2022-01-28T14:45:41Z")
Oh is that what you appreciate about me? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/375 "2022-01-28T18:38:32Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > That’s what I appreciates about you, DeadTreasSecretaries > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Oh is that what you appreciate about me? Let’s take about twenty percent off there. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/376 "2022-01-29T01:36:04Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I was referring to the irreparable harm to ThedaCare that was supposedly the basis for requesting the TRO. The irreparable harm was self inflicted. If there’s any employee pay loss they should foot the bill. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/377 "2022-01-29T17:01:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What is the “reasonable likelihood of success” in at at-will state? I understand tortious interference with contract, but if an employee can quit on a moment’s notice, how is it tortious interference if another employer says, “We’ll hire you at a better wage?” I would guess that the judge saw that seven ThedaCare employees were all resigning on the same day and all were going to work for Ascension and that was the hook, the plausible fact in the pleading, that could possibly make out a claim for tortious interference with a business expectancy that was just barely enough to buy them a weekend. And it all worked out, the right decision was made, and merriment was had by all. It seems that the judicial system worked as it should but some are upset that it did not work perfectly, with all facts known in hindsight, and that the imperfection was a lost weekend which will be fully compensated. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/378 "2022-01-29T19:41:28Z")
It looks like ThedaCare saw the writing on the wall and dropped the lawsuit in its entirety. > **[ThedaCare drops lawsuit against Ascension over hiring of former employees,...](https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/28/thedacare-drops-workers-lawsuit-against-ascension-wisconsin/9260783002/)** > > Lawyers for ThedaCare filed a notice of voluntary dismissal of the case Friday with the Outagamie County clerk of courts. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/379 "2022-01-29T19:46:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It seems that the judicial system worked as it should Eh, I think there was enough information up-front for the judge to dismiss the case immediately, and not make a lot of people sweat over the weekend. But it was only a delay of one business-day. So I’m not outraged or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2022, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/380 "2022-01-30T20:36:12Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It seems that the judicial system worked as it should but some are upset that it did not work perfectly Hypothetically, if a plaintiff requesting a TRO inarguably fails to meet their low burden, and the TRO is granted anyway, but is ultimately rescinded, would you feel that was an example of the system working as it should (if not perfectly)? Or are you saying you think it was arguable here? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2022, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/381 "2022-01-30T21:32:39Z")
Personally, I don’t really begrudge the weekend status-quo-preserving order, without knowing what else was on the judge’s plate. Someone upthread made a remark about the judge not being willing to stay late and impinge on their weekend. But the judges I’m familiar with have fully booked weekdays, and spend their nights and weekends reading briefs and cases, and writing. And some are on call for warrants over the weekend, too. They may just not have been able to give it enough attention until Monday. The employees were compensated and the injunction lifted as soon as there could be a hearing. Yes, it’s imperfect, but it’s not a very bad result considering. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/382 "2022-01-31T01:44:59Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Personally, I don’t really begrudge the weekend status-quo-preserving order, without knowing what else was on the judge’s plate. I do because 1. He punted to give the two sides time to work out their differences rather than his job which was to read the complaint, ask if the workers were under contract, and upon hearing “No.” laugh it out of court. 2. Whether intended or not, it was an example of “F the little guy in favor of corporate interest.” 3. I’m not wholly convinced the decision on Monday would have been made had this story not exploded like it did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=20)