# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/383 "2022-01-31T04:12:27Z")
From the article @Ann_Hedonia quoted: > [@](#): > > “What we were looking for is just some help to orderly transition a large number of people … from one health system to another,” Andrabi said. “It just created a huge gap, and we wanted some help in the interim **to figure out how to bridge that gap** for the community.” “Pay them more” doesn’t seem to have occurred to anyone at ThedaDoesn’tCare as a way to bridge that gap. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/384 "2022-01-31T04:16:06Z")
I’m willing to say this was a mistake that didn’t cause too much harm. But I think it was a mistake, and I’m uncomfortable with glossing over that part. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/385 "2022-01-31T04:32:47Z")
Or start hiring replacements when they found out workers were leaving. Instead their solution was to treat their employees as property. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/386 "2022-01-31T10:19:47Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > He punted to give the two sides time to work out their differences rather than his job which was to read the complaint, **ask if the workers were under contract, and upon hearing “No.” laugh it out of court.** My bold. How was he supposed to ask anyone anything? Judges can’t just call up one side and ask them questions. If you have a question, you have to hold a hearing with both sides present. You may not be able to hold a hearing the day you receive the request for the injunction. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/387 "2022-01-31T11:38:03Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > How was he supposed to ask anyone anything? > > Judges can’t just call up one side and ask them questions. If you have a question, you have to hold a hearing with both sides present. You may not be able to hold a hearing the day you receive the request for the injunction. According to the OP article: > McGinnis granted ThedaCare’s request for the restraining order and held an initial hearing Friday morning. > > McGinnis told lawyers for both health systems they should try to work out a temporary agreement by the end of the day Friday about the employees’ status until Monday’s hearing. So he clearly did have both parties present in court on the Friday before issuing the TRO. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/388 "2022-01-31T12:08:17Z")
Funny that only the employers were parties to this suit, and the employees were treated as property of the employers. I think that’s what’s bothering most posters in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/389 "2022-01-31T12:41:06Z")
Well, the thing is ThedaCare knew they could not sue an individual at-will employee for moving on. That much _would_ get the “laughed out” treatment. OTOH, what with multiple people quitting then all starting work at the same time in the other hospital, the former employer formed a line of thinking along the proverbial “one, happenstance, two, coincidence, 3+, enemy action” and claimed harm from their competitor. That way it would be going to court after “someone their own size”, claiming some sort of unfair competition, not that each employee was obligated to stay put. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/390 "2022-01-31T16:40:14Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > So he clearly did have both parties present in court on the Friday before issuing the TRO I stand corrected. I missed that. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/391 "2022-02-13T23:08:35Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > OTOH, what with multiple people quitting then all starting work at the same time in the other hospital, the former employer formed a line of thinking along the proverbial “one, happenstance, two, coincidence, 3+, enemy action” and claimed harm from their competitor. Right. So the judge gave it one single weekend. Not a year, not a month. Just a weekend. I don’t know why posters are acting like he killed these employees. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/392 "2022-02-14T00:40:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Right. So the judge gave it one single weekend. Not a year, not a month. Just a weekend. I don’t know why posters are acting like he killed these employees. Because the implication was that employee rights to choose their employer is subrogated to the desires of their employers. Yes it was not upheld long-term, but the fact that it even happened (and technically over a weekday) is scary. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/393 "2022-02-14T12:18:18Z")
So one whole day that they ended up getting paid for. I’m not seeing the horrific part. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/394 "2022-02-14T12:25:32Z")
So, the judge takes away your freedom of religion. You may not worship the god you normally do, but just for a few days. No biggie. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/395 "2022-02-14T12:27:21Z")
No, of course not. There was an allegation that another company was poaching employees and destroying health care in the community. That was shown to be false, but the judge gave it one weekend. And I’m sure the people who verified the complaint are paying out the nose for doing so. That’s how things should work. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/396 "2022-02-14T12:30:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > the judge gave it one weekend. But why even one weekend? Did his honor truly believe there was a situation where he could force people to work a job they did not want to work? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/397 "2022-02-14T12:33:41Z")
Like I said earlier, I think that is how things should work. If you walk into a judge’s office with a complaint, signed under the pains and penalties of false swearing, that people will DIE if the judge doesn’t do what you want right NOW, should the judge just ignore you? I think one single weekend is a reasonable reaction to that situation and when he heard the evidence on Monday he said “No. Get out of my courtroom.” And the employees were paid. My outrage meter is near zero. I would hope that any judge would press the pause button for you or for me. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/398 "2022-02-14T12:47:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > people will DIE if the judge doesn’t do what you want right NOW, should the judge just ignore you? Die in all caps doesn’t mean the judge has the power to FORCE people to WORK if they choose not to work. I have a factory where I keep children chained up, working to produce medication which can be shown keeps people alive. Police raid and shut down the factory. Should the judge keep the factory open for the weekend? People will die, and it’s just a few more days the kids will work. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/399 "2022-02-14T12:49:44Z")
Child slavery is just a slight bit different from what was alleged in this case, no? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/400 "2022-02-14T12:57:15Z")
We’re quibbling over the age of our forced laborer now? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/401 "2022-02-14T13:09:41Z")
You posited children in chains. That is different from what happened. ETA: There were no adults in chains either. And they got paid. Win-win. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/402 "2022-02-14T13:18:00Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > McGinnis granted ThedaCare’s request for the restraining order and held an initial hearing Friday morning. > > McGinnis told lawyers for both health systems they should try to work out a temporary agreement by the end of the day Friday about the employees’ status until Monday’s hearing. What information did the judge get during Monday’s hearing that he couldn’t have gotten at Friday’s hearing? > If you walk into a judge’s office with a complaint, signed under the pains and penalties of false swearing, that people will DIE if the judge doesn’t do what you want right NOW, should the judge just ignore you? Depends. Am I even accusing someone of doing something that is in fact illegal or are they just doing something I’d rather they didn’t do? Because no, I don’t want the judge issuing any orders without at least an allegation of illegality. And that’s the problem - there wasn’t even any accusation of illegal activity. The employees didn’t have contracts and were free to change jobs whenever they wanted to - so no tortious interference since there were no contracts. Even the " people will DIE" didn’t make sense. Any people who would have died if they started working at Ascension on Monday would have died if the employees weren’t working at Thedacare for any reason at all - it’s not like people were going to die if the employees worked at Ascension on Monday but all would have been fine if they worked at neither company on Monday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=21)