# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/443 "2022-02-16T00:27:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > This will cause DEATH and other Very Bad Things. It is Friday afternoon. You say “okay, let’s hear about it Monday.” On Monday the judge does what we agree was correct all along. Again I ask you. What duty of care did these employees owe potential patients that they were not allowed to (temporarily) change jobs? And if you correctly take the position they were allowed to leave ThedaCare, then why should “OMG people will die if they leave.” prevent them from working at another hospital? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/444 "2022-02-16T00:50:03Z")
Yeah, neither the judge nor thedacare has the authority to make those employees work for thedacare. We have a constitutional amendment about that. But non-compete agreements are common, and legal in most states. The judge does have authority to say that those employees can’t work for ascension, if he believes that ascension behaved illegally in hiring those employees. This was never about “people will die”. Preventing that wasn’t on the table. This was just a squabble between employers. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/445 "2022-02-16T00:58:42Z")
That’s the thing for me as well… Supprose it’s just ThedaCare and its employees. No other employer in the picture at all. If the 7 workers all quit on Friday, could the employer have got a TRO requiring those 7 people to keep working until Monday because PEOPLE MAY DIE!! ? Is that how restraining orders work in the US? If the employer could get that TRO in those circumstances, then I guess the employer could get it in the case that really happened. But if the employer in this hypothetical can’t get a TRO, because the 7 employees are at will and can leave at a moment’s notice, how does it change if another company enters the picture? If the employees can leave at a moment’s notice, where does this concept of “poaching” come in? ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/446 "2022-02-16T01:44:39Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > Hypothetically, if a plaintiff requesting a TRO inarguably fails to meet their low burden, and the TRO is granted anyway, but is ultimately rescinded, would you feel that was an example of the system working as it should (if not perfectly)? Or are you saying you think it was arguable here? @UltraVires I’d still like an answer to this question. It seems like you’re conflating “the way it should work” with “harmless error.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/447 "2022-02-16T02:36:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But non-compete agreements are common, and legal in most states. Except there wasn’t a non-compete agreement - ThedaCare didn’t even claim there was one. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/448 "2022-02-16T04:30:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > the 7 employees are at will and can leave at a moment’s notice They can leave at a moment’s notice even if they have strong contracts. There is a constitutional amendment granting them that right. If they have a contract they may owe a monetary fine for not completing it. But you cannot force someone to work for you in the US, unless they are in prison. It’s often not cool to stop working at a moment’s notice, and if you work in a small industry, you might have trouble getting your next job. But it’s legal for you to do it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/449 "2022-02-16T04:32:39Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > But non-compete agreements are common, and legal in most states. > > Except there wasn’t a non-compete agreement - ThedaCare didn’t even claim there was one. Yeah, but the existence of non-compete agreements makes me think it might generally be legal for a judge to say, “this employer can’t hire that person”. Which makes it very unlike forcing an employee to stay at the prior employer, which would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/450 "2022-02-16T04:39:35Z")
And all of this talk again brings it back to: what did ThedaCare tell the judge? There’s no contract, no non-compete clause, no unfair recruiting. So on what basis did the judge issue the TSO? Remember ThedaCare had to convince the judge that they stood a good chance to win the case on its merits to get the TSO. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/451 "2022-02-16T10:30:49Z")
Or the judge could be a privileged tool who doesn’t believe that people have rights unless they are stockholders. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/452 "2022-02-16T12:12:51Z")
I think it’s probably the opposite - if it was generally legal for a judge to say “this employer can’t hire that person” , I don’t think non-competes would be nearly as common as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/453 "2022-02-16T17:16:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What duty of care did these employees owe The employees don’t have any duty of care, in fact, they weren’t even part of the suit. Ascension was. Ascension has a responsibility to act in accordance with the law and not act in an anti-competitive way by damaging ThedaCare through illegal employment practices. The TRO wasn’t to make the employees do (or not do) anything, it was to make Ascension justify their business practices. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/454 "2022-02-16T17:37:16Z")
What « anti-competitive way »? The employees are in an « at-will » state. That means they can walk on their employer without notice. There’s no indication of any no-compete clauses for any of them. I still don’t understand what was the basic legal harm that was alleged to justify a TRO. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/455 "2022-02-16T18:02:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What « anti-competitive way »? The employees are in an « at-will » state. That means they can walk on their employer without notice. There’s no indication of any no-compete clauses for any of them. You haven’t mentioned Ascension in this paragraph. Ascension was sued, not the employees. The claim was that the community was harmed by Ascension’s unethical business practices. It is not ridiculousness to suggest that the courts might restrict a business’s unethical practices if those practices harm the community. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/456 "2022-02-16T18:14:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You haven’t mentioned Ascension in this paragraph. Ascension was sued, not the employees. The claim was that the community was harmed by Ascension’s unethical business practices. But what were Ascension’s unethical business practices that ThedaCare showed the judge on Friday to warrant a TRO? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/457 "2022-02-16T18:14:52Z")
But no one has said specifically what business practice(s) of Ascension were illegal ( not the same as unethical) - not even Thedacare. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/458 "2022-02-16T18:29:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But what were Ascension’s unethical business practices that ThedaCare showed the judge on Friday to warrant a TRO? I have no idea, but I’m pretty sure it has nothing to do with any employee’s personal right to not work at ThedaCare, because… no employees were sued. We keep going back to the idea that the employees didn’t do anything wrong. They didn’t, and nobody claimed that they did, not even Thedacare. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/459 "2022-02-16T18:29:42Z")
Is there any public record of what ThedaCare claimed to get the TRO on Friday because it seems no one here really knows. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/460 "2022-02-16T18:30:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > We keep going back to the idea that the employees didn’t do anything wrong. They didn’t, and nobody claimed that they did, not even Thedacare. Then why were they punished by not being allowed to start work on Monday? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/461 "2022-02-16T18:36:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Then why were they punished They were punished for the same reason a waitress is punished by the City Health Department because her manager can’t follow food safety rules. Collateral Damage. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/462 "2022-02-16T18:38:17Z")
[This](https://www.wpr.org/sites/default/files/thedacarecomplaint.pdf) was linked back on January 25 - it was filed on 1/20 and I seriously doubt there was any new information by the time of the court hearing on 1/21. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=24)