# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/61 "2022-01-22T17:29:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Certainly I will bear the moral responsibility for any patients who die, but is there a legal remedy? Does the government have an interest in protecting citizens from my evil plot, or does the free market rule here? This might be an argument if you plotted to have all of DopeTech’s employees quit without any advance notice. The article says this was not the case in regards to ThedaCare. They were apparently made aware weeks ago that these employees were planning on leaving their jobs but chose not to make any plans for this. > Attorney David Muth, who represented Ascension Friday, said their hospital was capable of caring for such patients in the event that it was necessary even though they are not designated at the same level as ThedaCare. > > Muth argued that ThedaCare had weeks to come up with better offers to keep their employees or figure out alternate staffing solutions and instead chose to initiate court action days before the workers were set to start at Ascension, resulting in “a mess of ThedaCare’s own making.” The article notes that ThedaCare has acknowledged this timeline. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/62 "2022-01-22T17:33:49Z")
My feeling is that corporations don’t get to play capitalist games then cry when they’re stomped by capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/63 "2022-01-22T17:34:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This might have hurt ThedaCare, but it wouldn’t have left patients without treatment. It will for at least a little while, since there’s going to be **some** kind of onboarding process. There’s going to be at least some disruption in the level of service being provided in the community. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This might be an argument if you plotted to have all of DopeTech’s employees quit without any advance notice. Say I didn’t. Say they all gave a full two-weeks notice. It doesn’t matter, because healthcare workers are in such short supply that you can’t just wander down to the local open-air nurse market and hire a bunch more. The hospital is fucked. Should the government step in? Note that I’m not defending ThedaCare here. I’m just curious about the government’s responsibility when it comes to private healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/64 "2022-01-22T17:36:03Z")
My onboarding process for hospital work has typically been under a week. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/65 "2022-01-22T17:40:37Z")
If there is to be a government intervention, it should be to force the hospitals to pay their workers a decent salary. Not to effectively enslave the workers. Perhaps the government should seize the hospitals from the private owners, rather than seize the labour from unwilling workers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/66 "2022-01-22T17:44:08Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > It doesn’t matter, because healthcare workers are in such short supply that you can’t just wander down to the local open-air nurse market and hire a bunch more. The hospital is fucked. Why not? Ascension did. Medical professionals are in high demand right now. That means their wages will tend to rise. Ascension was willing to pay higher wages and was able to find employees. ThedaCare appears to be unwilling to pay higher wages and therefore has trouble retaining employees. I don’t see any compelling public interest in saying people should provide medical services at ThedaCare rather than Ascension. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/67 "2022-01-22T17:50:36Z")
“There is no right to strike against the public safety by anybody, anywhere, any time.” Calvin Coolidge said this when 80% of the Boston police force went on strike. Ronald Reagan chortled it as well, when he clobbered the air traffic controllers. But when shareholders’ dividends not public safety is at stake, its more like the coercion used against Guatemalan banana pickers. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/68 "2022-01-22T17:58:38Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Circuit court judges in Wisconsin are elected – it is NOT in this judge’s interest to leave a significant portion of his voting public without access to trauma care. Well, I for one, was wondering if he was elected or at least subject to retention votes thinking I’d be highly disinclined to vote for him the next time around. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/69 "2022-01-22T18:19:29Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > My daughter is a nurse, her husband a doctor. Several times during the ongoing pandemic they’ve threatened to quit. Their demands were met each time. My nephew and my nephew-in-law are RNs, and they’ve both changed jobs during the pandemic. Different issues for both, but mostly due to working conditions and pay. My N-i-L has changed three jobs – although one change was because of a move out of state. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/70 "2022-01-22T18:21:36Z")
One has higher employee ratings on glassdoor. Guess which. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/71 "2022-01-22T18:43:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I see no reason to assume ThedaCare would be okay with the employees quitting if they found jobs at some business other than Ascension. It’s not what ThedaCare is okay with, it’s what the injunction actually says. You made the claim that the judge ordered the employees to keep working for their old employer. I’m pointing out that that claim is without any merit, and is contrary to the actual facts. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m saying this judge has decided the issue was the employees quitting ThedaCare. This is in fact the case. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You seem to be arguing that the issue is the employees going to work for Ascension. No, I am saying that the injunction is what is preventing them from working for Ascension. It’s possible that if they all decide to go work at McDonald’s, then ThedaCare may run out and try to get an injunction against that as well, but that’s not the current situation. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If it was true, the judge would be saying that ThedaCare has a say in who Ascension hires. Right, and since it’s not true, and I am not saying it is true, your conclusion is irrelevant. > [@susan](#): > > Otherwise we’d see more suits against medical staff, teachers, bus drivers, grocery stockers, truck drivers, and other workers who try to retire. These are people who have the lives of their patients in their hands. Is that responsibility any different from the rest on your list? > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Certainly I will bear the moral responsibility for any patients who die, but is there a legal remedy? Does the government have an interest in protecting citizens from my evil plot, or does the free market rule here? According to the current going ons, there is a temporary remedy in getting an injunction. Though it does seem as though many in this thread would side with the evil CEO and equate an injunction to slavery. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The judge has gone in the opposite direction from this goal. These employees were going to go to work for Ascension, where they would have provided the same medical services they provided at ThedaCare. According to the article, they do _not_ provide the same services. One is a 24/7 care facility, and the other operates more on business hours. Also, ThedaCare is where Ascension would transfer patients to if they are not able to provide for their medical needs. So, no, they do not provide the same medical services, and will leave patients without treatment. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The judge has now ordered that the employees can’t work at Ascension. Which means if they don’t choose to work at ThedaCare, they won’t be providing medical services to any patients. But it doesn’t say that they can’t work at ThedaCare, which is obviously what the hope of the injunction is, even if they cannot order that specifically. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The judge’s order will most likely reduce the amount of treatment patients will be receiving in that community. So his order can’t be based on medical need. The order is temporary, and is to be revisited on Monday with further hearings. Your declaration that it’s not based on medical need is without any factual foundation whatsoever. If it is based on your assertions that the provide the same service, and that gutting the employees at ThedaCare will not leave patients without treatment, then it is based on faulty information. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They were apparently made aware weeks ago that these employees were planning on leaving their jobs but chose not to make any plans for this. It is only your assertion that they did not make any plans. If they are not in a position to offer more money, then that’s not something that can be on the table. If it is hard to find employees, which it is, then having advance notice doesn’t mean that they can get the place staffed. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Why not? Ascension did. > > Medical professionals are in high demand right now. That means their wages will tend to rise. Right, they did so by taking the employees that were working for ThedaCare. Whose employees should ThedaCare poach? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Ascension was willing to pay higher wages and was able to find employees. And they claim that they did nothing to actually recruit these employees, right? As much hate and distrust as you have for employers, why do you believe this statement at face value? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > ThedaCare appears to be unwilling to pay higher wages and therefore has trouble retaining employees. Or is unable to, if Ascension charges its patients more, then they would be able to pay their employees more. Unless you actually know the financials involved, your statement of “being unwilling” is simply your creation, but not based on known facts. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see any compelling public interest in saying people should provide medical services at ThedaCare rather than Ascension. Other than that there are patients at ThedaCare who may suffer if the staff goes to Ascension, anyway. > [@susan](#): > > One has higher employee ratings on glassdoor. Guess which. Probably the one that doesn’t have 24/7 care, and the one that is able to reject poorer patients. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/72 "2022-01-22T18:44:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The judge has now ordered that the employees can’t work at Ascension I think this has overstated it a bit. ThedaCare asked the court to “partner with” Ascension [which I interpret as have your new employees stay here at our hospital] for 90 days so that they can [FILL](https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-against-ascension-wisconsin-worker-dispute/) these positions. > [@](#): > > The court action seeks to partner with Ascension Wisconsin for 90 days, giving ThedaCare enough time to fill those lost positions. The reason, they [CLAIM](https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/thedacare-files-lawsuit-to-keep-employees-from-leaving-for-ascension/amp/), is that they need more time to hire replacement staff. > [@](#): > > \*While we have tried to work with Ascension Wisconsin for additional time to execute a plan for staffing coverage that will provide the longterm continuation of services that support trauma, stroke and other essential areas of care, Ascension Wisconsin was unwilling to collaborate with us. We are essentially asking the Court to grant the injunction to maintain the status quo until ThedaCare can hire replacement staff for this vital department in order to protect access to the critical care services supported by the team, which are considered community assets.” Now, that might be bogus. The employees are saying that they gave plenty of notice. But, regardless, the judge has most decidedly NOT made a ruling on the merits. He’s said “everybody STOP!” and has said that this will be heard, in its entirety (meaning both sides will be allowed to explain their justification), on Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/73 "2022-01-22T18:54:32Z")
If the employees have to, by court injunction, stay at ThedaCare while their positions are (re)filled then ThedaCare should, at a minimum, pay them the rate they would have gotten at Ascension. I don’t know how you fix the issue with work hours and work environment tho. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/74 "2022-01-22T18:54:40Z")
Tell that to the Chicago Teachers Union. Children are better off, and safer, in school rather than out. Didn’t stop CTU from going on strike again. Did Lightfoot or Pritzker doing anything about it? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/75 "2022-01-22T18:55:52Z")
Yet Republicans are always trying to cut funding for education… ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/76 "2022-01-22T18:58:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He ordered that they cannot work for a different employer. That’s strong coercive pressure for them to keep working at their present employer. On preview it looks like my points all got stolen by @k9bfriender, but the injunction only temporarily prevents Ascension from employing these individuals. They are free to work anywhere else, including to work for ThedaCare if both they and ThedaCare wish to continue their employment relationship. But even if they do, it’s a suboptimal outcome for ThedaCare to continue to employ seven extremely disgruntled individuals who have no desire to be there. These employees are likely to be calling in sick, doing the bare minimum, and spreading disgruntlement among other employees. What can ThedaCare do? Fire them? That’s why I agree with others that the judge essentially issued a Writ of Work this Shit Out. The status quo of the injunction is in no one’s best interest, so he’s trying to force them to find an accommodation. Maybe they agree that the employees will continue at ThedaCare for 30 more days, and Ascension will throw them an additional bonus for the trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/77 "2022-01-22T18:58:23Z")
And children are also better off, and safer, with teachers who aren’t being abused. I don’t know the specific situation in Chicago, but there’s a lot of abuse of teachers out there. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/78 "2022-01-22T19:00:27Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > If the employees have to, by court injunction, stay at ThedaCare while their positions are (re)filled then ThedaCare should, at a minimum, pay them the rate they would have gotten at Ascension. As I read it, the order is at the hospital level - the request is to order Ascension to partner with ThedaCare so that its new employees stay at ThedaCare for 90 days. I’m guessing this means that the employees would be getting paid their new rate, by their new employer, and they would not experience any personal financial harm. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/79 "2022-01-22T19:01:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think that that would be the reasoning behind the judge’s decision. If patients died due to this mass resignation, then he could be held responsible (not legally, but politically and morally). And why can’t the employer be held responsible for simply refusing to pay the going rate for these employees? How is it the people with control of the money are never help responsible for how they use it? > [@filmore](#): > > I would expect this hospital to see mass resignations of the most capable people in the future as they get out when they can. Not to mention difficulty recruiting new employees. As I see it, they’ve basically screwed themselves. Why would anyone chose to work for them now? They’ve made it clear they won’t pay as much as their competitors, and they’ll literally go to court to stop you from switching jobs. The only people I could see taking a job with them are the ones who are so bad at their jobs that, even with the unprecedented demand for health workers, no one else will hire them. Just imagine what _that_ will do for patient care quality. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/80 "2022-01-22T19:01:24Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Would the court grant an injunction for the employees in that case? > [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > So what makes the employers so special (other than we live in a capitalist dystopia)? Corporate people are more important than corporeal people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=5)