# Judge prevents at-will hospital employees from quitting and working new jobs \[resolved: they may quit/start new jobs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223 "2022-01-22T13:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/141 "2022-01-23T18:23:58Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > But, what if this hospital is just saying, “you can all go. We get that. But we need another few months to replace the staff, so if you’d just help us with this transition, it won’t jeopardize our ability to serve as the only Level I trauma center in this area.” > > Meaning, it’s not a greed issue, or a money issue; it’s just a timing issue. > > (And this is why I’m so interested in the details. I’m sure that ThedaCare is saying something about losing their ability to offer 24/7 care if they lose these key people all at once, but I’m also sure that the judge wants to know why they can’t just replace these people. Have they sat on their hands, in denial the whole time? This is the part I have issue with. None of these decisions should matter to the court. It should only matter if there is actually any legal claim that ThedaCare had any right to exclusivity with hiring those workers. If they are free to go it doesn’t matter if the (economic) damage to ThedaCare or the people they serve is a result of greed, incompetence or something they have no control over. None of that translates to legal damage. It’s just a matter for the market actors to hopefully continue to find a way to keep the system working within existing market constraints or policymakers to intervene to fix the market failure. If an employee hears this: “you can all go. We get that. But we need another few months to replace the staff, so if you’d just help us with this transition, it won’t jeopardize our ability to serve as the only Level I trauma center in this area.” “No” is an acceptable answer. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/142 "2022-01-23T18:24:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s a pissing contest between two companies, and people are all taking the side of the company that initiated the pissing match, and very few are taking the side of the patients and community that will be negatively affected. I don’t see anyone taking the side of either company. Most people here seem to be on the side of the workers, who don’t seem to figure much in your calculus. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/143 "2022-01-23T18:34:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Let’s take an extreme example. You are in the middle of open heart surgery, and you get a call from the hospital across town that says that if you drop what you are doing, and come in right now, they will give you twice the pay. Is it your current employer who is in the wrong when they can’t afford to match the offer, but still wants you to finish the surgery? Is that forcing you to work for less pay than other employers are offering? Yet that’s very different from giving notice, talking about wage matching, and not being in the middle of a procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/144 "2022-01-23T18:39:49Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > If an employee hears this: > > “you can all go. We get that. But we need another few months to replace the staff, so if you’d just help us with this transition, it won’t jeopardize our ability to serve as the only Level I trauma center in this area.” > > “No” is an acceptable answer. I concede that point. In the absence of some prior contract that addresses this issue, you are correct. But it is also perhaps true that my analogy was poor. Recall, that this is a lawsuit between hospitals, alleging some sort of business interference. So, it’s not exactly accurate of me to phrase this as a company speaking to employees. It’s actually more akin to one company saying to another “you can have these employees that you’re taking from me. But can you agree to delay their starting dates so we can make sure our patients get coverage?” And underlying that is the accusation of some level of inappropriate conduct. It’s hard to know how compelling that might be, but that’s why this is so fact dependent, right? Maybe I’m being naive. Maybe there is no good example of one company doing something to hire away employees en masse which is actionable. Or maybe this judge is just going to pander to voters and engage in policy making from the bench without any solid legal basis. But I am definitely eager to find out. What if ThedaCare had employees sign an agreement when they started working that they’d give enough notice to ensure continuity of care, or wouldn’t team up with another coworker and leave for another job together, at the risk of losing some employment benefits (say, a payout of their unused PTO), but Ascension had offered to match that missed payout if they broke the promise. And now ThedaCare is saying, “this wouldn’t be such a problem for us if Ascension hadn’t used their “signing bonuses” to undermine our employment agreements.” Would that change your feelings at all? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/145 "2022-01-23T18:40:21Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Judges shouldn’t be economists and if there is a genuine market failure wrt healthcare providers being able to provide essential healthcare, that’s the job of policymakers to find a solution, not judges to rewrite employment agreements. I don’t think that will happen. This is a temporary injunction to keep people from dying. I am positive that any equitable solution will include requiring ThedaCare to make the employees whole. This only prevents a catastrophe from happening which is indeed of ThedaCare’s own making which, if the facts as presents are true, they will be responsible for paying for, with an additional solution to make sure that the one medical provider in the area is one that is able to pay market wages to staff. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/146 "2022-01-23T18:47:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t think that will happen. This is a temporary injunction to keep people from dying. How? The workers aren’t being told to keep doing their old keep-people-from-dying jobs; just to not start new keep-people-from-dying jobs. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/147 "2022-01-23T18:48:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Not much different(in principle) than the old days of hunting down runaway slaves and returning them to their masters. No. Being hunted down with dogs to be tortured, maimed, and/or killed along with your family, friends, and even casual acquaintances being tortured and maimed and anyone nearby who looks like you also being subject to physical abuse up to and including death is absolutely different “in principle” than being told that you have to wait a day to start a new job. This is not a comparison that should not be made. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/148 "2022-01-23T18:48:50Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > What if ThedaCare had employees sign an agreement when they started working that they’d give enough notice to ensure continuity of care, or wouldn’t team up with another coworker and leave for another job together, at the risk of losing some employment benefits (say, a payout of their unused PTO), but Ascension had offered to match that missed payout if they broke the promise. And now ThedaCare is saying, “this wouldn’t be such a problem for us if Ascension hadn’t used their “signing bonuses” to undermine our employment agreements.” > > Would that change your feelings at all? In the more extreme scenario that ThedaCare just had a non-compete clause or (while I’m sure it wouldn’t be legal in the first place) had an agreement with Ascension not to poach workers from each other I would definitely change my mind. I think with your example, ThedaCare decided to use that incentive structure and it wasn’t successful in their goal of disincentivizing a mass exodus, that would still be on them. > [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t think that will happen. This is a temporary injunction to keep people from dying. I am positive that any equitable solution will include requiring ThedaCare to make the employees whole. This only prevents a catastrophe from happening which is indeed of ThedaCare’s own making which, if the facts as presents are true, they will be responsible for paying for, with an additional solution to make sure that the one medical provider in the area is one that is able to pay market wages to staff. The specific thing the court shouldn’t be concerned with is whether ThedaCare has the ability to pay their workers enough to retain them or if there are market forces preventing that. I also think if there is a genuine emergency and someone needs to step in to save lives, that someone should be the government on some level, not a court. The court as an emergency worker reserve deployer isn’t an effective solution to this problem because no one is ever going to bother using it unless there’s something else they want (like in this case with creating a chilling effect for workers trying to quit). ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/149 "2022-01-23T19:00:10Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > if there is a genuine emergency and someone needs to step in to save lives, that someone should be the government on some level, not a court. In cases of imminent harm, the government is the court. You’ve never heard of somebody running to court to get an emergency injunction to stop some tragedy, like the destruction of an historic building, or an orphanage? It’s the stuff of Hollywood shlock all the time, but it has an undercurrent of reality - judges have the power to stop imminent harm with a court order, precisely so that things aren’t done that can’t be undone when there is some credible basis to reconsider the action. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/150 "2022-01-23T19:11:19Z")
You can’t un-tear down a building or un-cut a 2000 year old tree. You can hire back employees. There is not irreparable harm except to the economic interests of a corporation. That is not something courts are supposed to protect. I already provided a solution. Pay the employees at the rate of the top 10 highest paid employees of the corporation (including all incentives). It’s only temporary, right? Can’t possibly cost that much unless the compensation of the leadership is truly obscene. What, you say that this will drive up wages for undeserving people who only save lives, not make corporations and their leaders bucketloads money. Can’t have that. It’s antithetical to the American system of healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/151 "2022-01-23T19:14:51Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > You can’t un-tear down a building or un-cut a 2000 year old tree. You can hire back employees. There is not irreparable harm except to the economic interests of a corporation. The allegation is that they’ll lose accreditation as a Level I Trauma center, and people who have a stroke will need to be diverted hours away for emergency treatment. Whether the remedy solves that problem is another matter, but the claimed irreparable harm is to people who need immediate help in order to live. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/152 "2022-01-23T19:16:02Z")
They had a long time to address this and failed to. That they won’t match the offered salary/benefits to keep their staff, is 100% their choice to make. But when they choose NOT to, the ‘free market’, should kick in, where any employee is entitled to go where the pay is better. Funny it’s the same people protecting the employer who like to advise low wage employees to ‘just get a better job!’ Someone needs to look up how many times this employer has used the ‘at will’ firing to save costs when firing staff. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/153 "2022-01-23T19:40:38Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > But, what if this hospital is just saying, “you can all go. We get that. But we need another few months to replace the staff, so if you’d just help us with this transition, it won’t jeopardize our ability to serve as the only Level I trauma center in this area.” I already used this example but I’ll restate it here. Suppose a worker being fired says “you can let me go. I get that. But I need another few months to to find a new job, so if you’d just help me with this transition, it won’t jeopardize my ability to feed my family, pay rent and pay my bills” Do you think ThedaCare would do anything but laugh and say, “Get the F out!”? Do you think a judge would stop them from firing you or would they say, “At-will means exactly that.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/154 "2022-01-23T19:41:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > How? The workers aren’t being told to keep doing their old keep-people-from-dying jobs; just to not start new keep-people-from-dying jobs. Because as noted throughout the thread, courts don’t have the power to order forced labor. But they can make a situation where unless the employee is independently wealthy, if they cannot take their new promised job, they will stay at the old one. At least until after the hearing on Monday. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > I also think if there is a genuine emergency and someone needs to step in to save lives, that someone should be the government on some level, not a court. The courts ARE part of the government. But I believe that what you mean is that it should be a top down overall policy decision, perhaps enacted by Congress or a Legislature, and I agree. But this policy won’t be passed THIS INSTANT, therefore you need a court to enter a TRO to maintain the status quo and deal with this one situation until the policymakers can act. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/155 "2022-01-23T20:01:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Because as noted throughout the thread, courts don’t have the power to order forced labor. But they can make a situation where unless the employee is independently wealthy, if they cannot take their new promised job, they will stay at the old one. So you accept that the actual intention of the court order _is_ to force people to work at a job which they do not wish to work at? If a state government of a totalitarian mindset passed a law that said that an offical Employment Allocation Board would assign everyone to a job, and you’re not obliged to work your assigned job but are forbidden from working at any other job, would that be constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/156 "2022-01-23T20:09:35Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > So you accept that the actual intention of the court order _is_ to force people to work at a job which they do not wish to work at? Not speaking for UV: I don’t know how it could be otherwise since ThedaCare’s entire point for the injunction was “we need them working here until we replace them”. Anyone familiar with Wisc law, what has to happen before this Judge’s ruling can be appealed? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/157 "2022-01-23T20:11:29Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > So you accept that the actual intention of the court order _is_ to force people to work at a job which they do not wish to work at? Yes. On a very temporary basis to prevent people from dying with the ultimate resolution being that the employees are compensated for what they would have made at their new job plus some sweetener to boot. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Not speaking for UV: I don’t know how it could be otherwise since ThedaCare’s entire point for the injunction was “we need them working here until we replace them”. > Anyone familiar with Wisc law, what has to happen before this Judge’s ruling can be appealed? Yes. But again, the judge is having a hearing tomorrow. It is temporary, not a gulag. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/158 "2022-01-23T20:16:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Okay, but that’s not even close to related to this case. Really no similarity at all. Of course it is. ThedaCare is absolutely attempting to coerce these people into working at a lower wage. They didn’t file this suit expecting the workers to simply _stop working_. They want them working at ThedaCare, they obstructed their ability to work in a better position that they lawfully negotiated. This is absolutely a case of coercive labor and wage theft. It’s not a defense to say these workers can just go unemployed and miss some paychecks if they don’t like what Theda is doing. Frankly it’s disgusting and inexcusable to do this to anyone, especially _at will_ employees, who supposedly don’t need permission or reason to quit (certainly the employer doesn’t need a reason to fire them). At-will _must_ work in both directions. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. There’s no valid argument to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/159 "2022-01-23T20:19:08Z")
It is just a TRO to halt a catastrophe. It is not “wage theft” or any sort of long term benefit to ThedaCare. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223/160 "2022-01-23T20:19:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > with the ultimate resolution being that the employees are compensated for what they would have made at their new job plus some sweetener to boot. When ThedaCare was offered the opportunity to match the packages offered by Ascension, their response was, “the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost.” They already had one opportunity to keep their employees by paying a higher salary. Why should the court give them a do-over on making a bad decision? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-prevents-at-will-hospital-employees-from-quitting-and-working-new-jobs-resolved-they-may-quit-start-new-jobs/958223.md?page=9)