# Judge reduces file-sharing damages award by 90 percent. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283 "2010-07-11T07:32:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/101 "2010-07-12T18:35:22Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Let’s make a few things clear. Copyright violation IS NOT A CRIME. You cannot be arrested for violating copyright. You cannot be prosecuted. You cannot be convicted. It is not a crime. > > Violation of copyright is not stealing. If you steal a car, that’s a crime. If you steal a loaf of bread, that’s a crime. If you steal a physical CD, that’s a crime. > > But if you copy the information on a physical CD to another medium, you haven’t stolen anything. What you have done is something different, which is copyright violation. You’ve committed a tort, not a crime. Well said. It’s important that people consider this when they take about file sharing. A question for those who still view it as some form of theft. Are you as offended by people retelling a professional comedian’s joke, or someone recounting a famous novelist’s anecdote? When should things enter the public domain? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/102 "2010-07-12T18:37:55Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The difference being, if you take an item from a store without paying for it, that item has to be physically replaced, whereas a recording can be copied almost infinitely now, without any detriment to the original item, which an artist should already have received a fair payment for. > ps. Piracy is only a crime because the laws are outdated. There is no inherent right for corporations to make money by whoring their carefully selected artists. Wrong. I’m not completely familar with how the pay works but I’m feel it may have something to do with # of sales. Piracy means someone who might have bought the item just got it for free. That’s lost sales and lost profit for the label , the artist, and the writers. There are things like copyright laws so if labels and or writers and artists own publishing rights to certain music and offer it for sale as a product. It’s a crime to copy their product and distribute it for free. They have every right to whore out their artists just as much as any merchant who offers a product for sale. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/103 "2010-07-12T18:38:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > all of that. As a business they get to make a profit. If you think their business plan is bad and they charge to much then don’t buy from them , but piracy is not an honest or justified alternative. It’s like any other business. Losses have to be factored in and that affects what’s available at what price to folks who don’t steal it. One key point here is whether it is _actually_ stealing, or whether it is copying. There is no loss of property to the owner, and there may be a net gain (people becoming fans through illegal download of music that they would not normally listen to or buy). Each “theft” costs them nothing, except for potential earnings. The other point is whether musicians can make a decent living touring. Compare musicians with comedians. You can’t patent a joke. So comedians are forced to rely on their live shows for income, while clips on youtube generate publicity for them. Maybe music is heading the same way. Edit: I see\*\* Brickbacon \*\*beat me to the comedian comparison ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/104 "2010-07-12T18:40:59Z")
**@ Cosmodan** - They do, but I’m saying they shouldn’t. And technology is limiting their say in the matter. Adapt, or die. It’s the evolution of entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/105 "2010-07-12T18:41:17Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Well said. It’s important that people consider this when they take about file sharing. > > A question for those who still view it as some form of theft. Are you as offended by people retelling a professional comedian’s joke, or someone recounting a famous novelist’s anecdote? When should things enter the public domain? Not a valid comparison. If I learn to play a certain song from another artist it’s not the same as an exact copy is it? If I make my own CD of that song and sell it I owe someone publishing fees. There are specific laws about copyrights and how long before something enters public domain. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/106 "2010-07-12T18:43:38Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > **@ Cosmodan** - They do, but I’m saying they shouldn’t. And technology is limiting their say in the matter. Adapt, or die. It’s the evolution of entertainment. That’s the point isn’t it. That’s the justification. Since technology allows us to steal someone else’s work easily and makes it difficult for us to be causght and prosecuted then somehow it must be okay. What bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/107 "2010-07-12T18:45:25Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wrong. I’m not completely familar with how the pay works but I’m feel it may have something to do with # of sales. Piracy means someone who might have bought the item just got it for free. That’s lost sales and lost profit for the label , the artist, and the writers. No. Absolutely not. The demand for something when it is free is way, way, way, way, way higher than when it is not free. The vast majority of music I’ve downloaded is stuff I have never heard, and would never pay for. It’s absolutely ridiculous when record companies assume that one illegal download = one less sale. I’d say its more like 100:1 ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/108 "2010-07-12T18:48:07Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Not a valid comparison. If I learn to play a certain song from another artist it’s not the same as an exact copy is it? If I make my own CD of that song and sell it I owe someone publishing fees. There are specific laws about copyrights and how long before something enters public domain. You keep on harping back to laws, but its clear that new legislation is needed to keep up with the ever changing technology. So forget what the law _says_, outdated as it is. What _should_ the law say? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/109 "2010-07-12T18:49:08Z")
What if I record a busker on a busy street, knock up a few cd’s, and pimp them on my car-boot sale? I know morally I should bung him a few quid if he turns out popular, but really, if he can’t be arsed doing it, why shouldn’t I be able to, and where is he losing out if I do? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/110 "2010-07-12T18:52:30Z")
> [@carm](#): > > One key point here is whether it is _actually_ stealing, or whether it is copying. There is no loss of property to the owner, and there may be a net gain (people becoming fans through illegal download of music that they would not normally listen to or buy). Each “theft” costs them nothing, except for potential earnings. Loss of potential earnings is enough and my guess is it far outweighs the occasional winning of a new fan. I had a friend who copied his CDs to put in his car so his originals wouldn’t be damaged or stolen. NP, that’s still his personal use. If he makes copies to pass out to friends with the specific intent of helping them avoid paying for a product that’s not okay. > [@](#): > > The other point is whether musicians can make a decent living touring. Compare musicians with comedians. You can’t patent a joke. So comedians are forced to rely on their live shows for income, while clips on youtube generate publicity for them. Maybe music is heading the same way. Comedians sell CDs. Posting a piece of thier routine online can become good advertisement for them. Musicians offer clips of songs as well. There are many levels of success in the music business and touring can be one of them. Wedding bands and coorperate bands can make big money. That has nothing to do with the issue of piracy. > [@](#): > > Edit: I see\*\* Brickbacon \*\*beat me to the comedian comparison Which doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/111 "2010-07-12T18:55:53Z")
Comedians sell CD’s _because they can_. It doesn’t mean they should be entitled to it. Artists are getting fat and soft, and need a bit of adversity to get their creative juices flowing. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/112 "2010-07-12T18:58:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Which doesn’t work. Of course it works. Comedians can make a living touring, and so can musicians. Regardless of their cd sales. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/113 "2010-07-12T18:58:59Z")
> [@carm](#): > > You keep on harping back to laws, but its clear that new legislation is needed to keep up with the ever changing technology. So forget what the law _says_, outdated as it is. What _should_ the law say? I think it’s about the realisitic consequences of breaking the law and whether or not the existing laws can be realisitically enforced. Copyright infringement has a long history and the basic principle of taking someone elses work hasn’t changed just because technology made it easier. Let’s say technology made it easier to track who was downloading songs and they started really cracking down and fining the crap out of people. Would available technology justify it? ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/114 "2010-07-12T19:00:30Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/115 "2010-07-12T19:03:07Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Of course it works. Comedians can make a living touring, and so can musicians. Regardless of their cd sales. There’s no realisitic comparison between me repeating a joke I heard from some comic and an exact copy of a CD that’s for sale. Let me ask this We see the big labels as giant bad guys who can take the hit so screw them. What if someone creates a great CD and all the profits are going to feed the starving families in Africa or Aids research or something. Would copying that CD and giving it away seem more objectionable? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/116 "2010-07-12T19:04:59Z")
> [@carm](#): > > No. But hey, don’t we have to adapt to the changing technology. If the available technology is used to justify widespread piracy then why wouldn’t advanced technology that allowed people to prosecute piracy be just as justified? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/117 "2010-07-12T19:06:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Comedians sell CD’s _because they can_. It doesn’t mean they should be entitled to it. Artists are getting fat and soft, and need a bit of adversity to get their creative juices flowing. I see, thanks for playing you’re dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/118 "2010-07-12T19:13:48Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > But hey, don’t we have to adapt to the changing technology. If the available technology is used to justify widespread piracy then why wouldn’t advanced technology that allowed people to prosecute piracy be just as justified? Overzealous prosecution of piracy is much, much worse than actual piracy imo. People’s lives can be ruined. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/119 "2010-07-12T19:18:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > There’s no realisitic comparison between me repeating a joke I heard from some comic and an exact copy of a CD that’s for sale. > > Let me ask this > We see the big labels as giant bad guys who can take the hit so screw them. What if someone creates a great CD and all the profits are going to feed the starving families in Africa or Aids research or something. Would copying that CD and giving it away seem more objectionable? The point is, comedians go into the profession knowing that they will have to tour to make money, and cannot rely on studio recordings. And I wouldn’t distinguish between the charity cd and a normal cd, simply because I never buy cds any more, so I would not be denying sales to either. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283/120 "2010-07-12T19:34:03Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Overzealous prosecution of piracy is much, much worse than actual piracy imo. People’s lives can be ruined. People’s lives can be ruined by committing a crime they thought they’d never get caught for, when they actually get caught? Why is life so hard? I’m half kidding. I don’t agree that ridiculous fines against college kids is a realistic solution but I’m also very tired of the justification of what amounts to theft. I’m dead sure that if tomorrow the technology was available to easily track illegal copies and impose real fines nobody would be screaming that it’s their right to make copies. It would be more like, “shit, I can’t steal that stuff anymore. Dammit” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-reduces-file-sharing-damages-award-by-90-percent/546283.md?page=7)