# Judge Sends 3 Siblings to Detention Center for Refusing Lunch with Father **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 10, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772 "2015-07-10T14:49:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/1 "2015-07-10T14:49:53Z")
[This](http://www.bostonnewstime.com/regional/111151-michigan-judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father.html) is the most “neutral” article I came up with on a quick search… My question is why would Judge Lisa Gorcyca think incarcerating the Tsimhoni children (and apparently isolating them) helps this situation? Was she just frustrated? And if she was, why not jail the mother if she was the cause of the alienation? Is there someone familiar with the child protective services arena that can explain what I’m not seeing, because my kneejerk reaction is that we need to get rid of any family court judge that is this bullying. If the mother is so bad, hell, switch custodial parents then. But lock up the kids? Isolate them _from each other_? Threaten to lock up them up until they’re 18? The boy claims he saw his dad commit an act of violence and the judge says: > [@](#): > > You’re very defiant, you have no manners. There is no reason why you do not have a relationship with your father. Your father has never been charged with anything. Your father doesn’t have a personal protection order against him. Your father is well-liked and loved by the community, his co-workers, his family, his colleagues. You, young man, have got it wrong. It’s like something out of a bad movie. “What’s wrong with you? Everyone says your dad is great! Your fear is so wrong, I’m sending you to jail! And your little sister too!” - only she just didn’t disappear in a puff of green smoke like the Wicked Witch of the West - she actually punished them with the full force of the law. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/2 "2015-07-10T14:57:34Z")
Absolutely horrific. What kind of father would allow this to be done on his behalf? Clearly no one with any power had the children’s interests at heart. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/3 "2015-07-10T15:20:18Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Absolutely horrific. What kind of father would allow this to be done on his behalf? Clearly no one with any power had the children’s interests at heart. I agree, but it sounds like the mother is also responsible. The mother has the ability to influence the children to honor the custody arrangement, that she agreed to. All around a cluster. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/4 "2015-07-10T15:27:48Z")
Making them spend time with him may not have been in their best interest. Maybe he was an abusive jerk and they reasonably chose to avoid him. Why assume she agreed to any arrangement? The court will force an arrangement if no agreement is reached and these children are not the property of either parent. They chose not to see him and obviously felt very strongly about it, so I sure wouldn’t have made them if I were her. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/5 "2015-07-10T15:36:22Z")
Maybe the mother has poisoned the relationship with a fine father. The judge should have sent the mother to jail if that is the case. There is either a good reason for the children not wanting to see their father such as he being abusive, or the judge should do everything possible to enforce the visitation order. But if the children are balking, and the primary custodian is their mother, she’s the one who should be doing time. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/6 "2015-07-10T16:24:46Z")
That’s how I see it - if the mother is at fault, yeah, lock her up. But locking up the children? It says they have court-appointed attorneys as well (but if this judge appointed them, I have to wonder about that as well) - couldn’t the children’s attorneys stop this? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/7 "2015-07-10T16:29:21Z")
The state should examine the judge’s child for broken bones and whip welts. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/8 "2015-07-10T16:33:16Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Making them spend time with him may not have been in their best interest. Maybe he was an abusive jerk and they reasonably chose to avoid him. > > Why assume she agreed to any arrangement? The court will force an arrangement if no agreement is reached and these children are not the property of either parent. They chose not to see him and obviously felt very strongly about it, so I sure wouldn’t have made them if I were her. I’m going to first assume that the judge in this case has better knowledge of what’s gone on than you, I or the reporters covering it. If there were grounds for sole custody by the mother and no visitation by the father, that should have been brought up and argued prior to the custody agreement being put in place. The only thing mentioned is that one of the kids claim they saw their father hit their mother. Sounds like the judge didn’t believe the kid, and most judges would at a minimum inquire about that, and we don’t know that the judge didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/9 "2015-07-10T16:34:17Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The state should examine the judge’s child for broken bones and whip welts. Probably a good idea, considering that the kids pic had her face all scratched out! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/10 "2015-07-10T17:25:12Z")
everyone involved in this case sounds terrible. I’m not sure what to think about it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/11 "2015-07-10T17:52:41Z")
A separate question that I always wonder in these kinds of horror stories is this: Is there no appeal to a higher court, or other higher authority? One reads stories like this sometimes that go on and on, when some seemingly out-of-control loose-cannon judge or prosecutor or CPS worker totally trashes the lives of families or others, and there never seems to be an option, or not an easily available option, to get the case escalated or reviewed. It often seems that taking the case to “the court of public opinion” is the first, last, and only appeal available. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/12 "2015-07-10T18:08:59Z")
Put them in jail! That will make them want to have lunch with their (allegedly abusive) father! This made me very angry. The children also claimed that the father was abusive. Why on earth would the judge ignore that and force children to spend time with him? I hope that the children have an outside person assigned to represent their interests, and that they are able to sue for being inappropriately jailed. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/13 "2015-07-10T18:13:00Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I’m going to first assume that the judge in this case has better knowledge of what’s gone on than you, I or the reporters covering it. > > If there were grounds for sole custody by the mother and no visitation by the father, that should have been brought up and argued prior to the custody agreement being put in place. The only thing mentioned is that one of the kids claim they saw their father hit their mother. Sounds like the judge didn’t believe the kid, and most judges would at a minimum inquire about that, and we don’t know that the judge didn’t. I think the article said that the previous visitation was supervised. I don’t know what causes supervised visitation to be triggered. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/14 "2015-07-10T18:45:45Z")
The thing that caught my attention about this case is the length of time the kids need to stay locked up. Until September unless appeals happen? That sounds excessive for a child who’s only charged crime was contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/15 "2015-07-10T18:52:36Z")
> [@xizor](#): > > That sounds excessive for a child who’s only charged crime was contempt. Not to mention that they are kids and probably don’t understand contempt of court charges. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/16 "2015-07-10T18:53:02Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Absolutely horrific. What kind of father would allow this to be done on his behalf? Clearly no one with any power had the children’s interests at heart. Dude is enforcing his parental rights. Mother poisons the kids against him. Female judge sends kids to jail. Gotta be the dude’s fault. Nature… finds a way. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/17 "2015-07-10T19:16:44Z")
Even though that article is long, I can’t help but feel we’re only getting part of the story. Divorce is always ugly, doubly so with kids in the mix, triply so with kids old enough to speak for themselves in court… because one or both parents are almost always using them on some level. I sympathize with the whole family here. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/18 "2015-07-10T19:20:21Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Absolutely horrific. **What kind of father would allow this to be done on his behalf?** Clearly no one with any power had the children’s interests at heart. Aye, this went through my head this morning when I read the article on the AP website. “Ha! Lock 'em up! That’ll teach those kids to want to spend time with me!” 😕:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/19 "2015-07-10T19:33:24Z")
Maybe the father is a violent abuser. Maybe the mother is a psychotic manipulator. Maybe both parents are terrible. But I’m having a hard time seeing how locking the children up is improving the situation, regardless of what the situation is. This seems like a case of a judge overreacting because somebody defied her: “I am a judge and you will respect my authoritah!” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772/20 "2015-07-10T19:35:54Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I hope that the children have an outside person assigned to represent their interests, and that they are able to sue for being inappropriately jailed. I believe the article mentioned that each child had his or her own lawyer, but each refused to speak with that lawyer. Like **Amateur Barbarian** says, there might be more here than is immediately apparent. Or maybe the mother (or the father) is as nuts as they make each other sound. Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-sends-3-siblings-to-detention-center-for-refusing-lunch-with-father/724772.md?page=2)