# Judge to Jurors: Wear a Tie, Man! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 15, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886 "2006-09-15T21:21:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/81 "2006-09-18T23:16:34Z")
I wore a suit and tie when I served on a jury, but the other man on the four person jury was in casual clothing. My choice of a suit was driven less by a sense of decorum and more by the fact that I was hoping to be discharged and go straight back to the office. The Sheriff’s Office in NSW gives instructions to prospective jurors on what to wear: > [@](#): > > \*\*What to Wear \*\* – > There are no specific dress regulations for a juror, although generally a juror will wear neat, comfortable clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/82 "2006-09-19T00:19:09Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I honestly don’t understand why “conformity” is considered to be almost an inherent evil by some people. We’re all conformists in that we even _wear_ clothes. (An Amazonian woman would probably shake her head and ask me why I allow myself to be opressed into covering my breasts.). [/QUOTE] Sometimes it’s not mere resistance to conformity for the sake of it. Some people really do feel they look better in non-conforming clothes (like jeans), and are more confident as a result. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/83 "2006-09-19T01:38:32Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Look, I know the Jduge wasn’t making a demand. But why the hell mention it at all? Does he have stock in a company that makes ties or sumthin? It’s reasonable to ask dudes to “dress appropriately”, it’s _not_ OK to ask for a “snugly knotted necktie.” [/QUOTE] “Dress appropriately” is vague. Some would assume that wearing a t-shirt that isn’t moth-eaten is enough to constitute appropriate attire. In the judge’s judgment, wearing a tie is apparently one of the minimal requirements for appropriate dress. One might disagree with him, but that doesn’t make his demand inherently unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/84 "2006-09-19T01:41:58Z")
The question is: Can the judge _make_ you wear a tie? If the answer is no, then fuck him and the horse he rode in on. I’ll wear whatever I fucking well like, and the judge can go pound sand. If the answer is yes, then I will make sure I never serve on a jury again. There are ways… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/85 "2006-09-19T02:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] The question is: Can the judge _make_ you wear a tie? If the answer is no, then fuck him and the horse he rode in on. I’ll wear whatever I fucking well like, and the judge can go pound sand. If the answer is yes, then I will make sure I never serve on a jury again. There are ways… [/QUOTE] Well if the judge can make people were clothing they don’t have then it’s only fair that the government purchase it for them. Either that or give jurors some kind of robe to wear. For that matter make lawyers wear distinctive robes too. Hell bring back wigs, codpieces, and hoopskirts too! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/86 "2006-09-19T02:31:15Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] I know corsets can make you ill for the wearing. Are you an expert on headaches? I know how to tie a tie. When properly tightened it becomes restrictive. Between migraines, arthritis in my neck, and a broken bone floating freely in my neck, I have problems with ties. I’ll wear a tie to a function for an hour or two and then it’s coming off. I have a drawer full of expensive silk ties and would love nothing better than to play dress-up. [/QUOTE] There was nothing in your post that I replied to that even hinted that you had any particular medical issues that would cause a tie to be more uncomfortable for you than it would be for anyone else: [QUOTE=Magiver] I wore a tie for 15 years and was not a big fan of them. They contributed to headaches and generally did nothing toward a dress code. I’ll wear one when you wear a corset. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/87 "2006-09-19T03:09:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] There was nothing in your post that I replied to that even hinted that you had any particular medical issues that would cause a tie to be more uncomfortable for you than it would be for anyone else: [/QUOTE] “They contribute to headaches” was really code for “they contribute to headaches”. 😉 And I assure you that I’m not the only one that has [medical problems](http://chealth.canoe.ca/columns.asp?columnistid=6&articleid=13048&relation_id=3224) with ties. I think it’s compounded by a large Adam’s apple but that just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/88 "2006-09-19T03:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] Hell bring back wigs, codpieces, and hoopskirts too! 😃 [/QUOTE] I’ll do it if I get a wig and codpiece. Even though I don’t have a cod. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/89 "2006-09-19T15:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] I was an obedient conformist once; I believed that wearing a suit and tie would grant me some level of respect, as if that ritualized clothing made me a grander person. Then I grew up. People respected me at work because of the quality of my work and my intelligence. More than that, I am respected because of the way I treat other people. I learned that when people judge a man by his suit, the verdict is often “pompous.” A man who sees me as a better man in a suit is a poor judge of character. Wrapping myself in fine wool with a silken ornament down my shirt doesn’t change what’s in my heart. [/QUOTE] Hear, hear. I don’t even own a suit, and will not buy one. I love a nice suit, but am not willing to spend a large part of my monthly income on it. Why should I buy a piece of clothing that will only get used at funerals, weddings and jury duty (which we don’t have in the Netherlands)? If cheap suits looked good, I might get one, but I still wouldn’t wear a tie. I think a tie symbolizes servitude. I have great respect for the (deceased) husband of our former queen, who took of his tie in public and vowed never to wear one again, as it is a stupid symbol, which doesn’t mean anything and is only used to divide people into upper- and underclass. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/90 "2006-09-19T15:21:09Z")
I think you’re all forgetting the most important thing: being on a jury sucks. It really sucks. You have to miss work, maybe missing wages and getting in hot water with your boss. You have to sit in a hot, uncomfortable courtroom for hours and pay attention to boring lawyers drone on and on. Maybe, if you’re really unlucky, you’ll have to be torn away from your family and home and sequestered in a shitty hotel room. You can’t watch the news. You can’t read the paper. It is a crappy experience all around. So this dress code thing is just one more fucking hassle. It’s going through an incredibly torturous experience (civic duty, whatever), and then being told that on top of THAT you have to do another thing that is a PITA. Yeah, it’s something that most of us will have to do eventually, and grown up people should just suck it up, but there are only so many minor inconviences one can take before pulling out their Uzi and going ape on the entire courthouse. And I don’t think anyone wants that. (I actually have never served on a jury but I know of its suckitude from others. I would probably wear a skirt because I like them but it would be a casual skirt and I would not wear pantyhose. With how short I am they look like elephant skin anyway. Besides I don’t think it serves the interests of my country to have a hot, stanky crotch for eight hours. YMMV.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/91 "2006-09-19T15:25:02Z")
[QUOTE=davenportavenger] I think you’re all forgetting the most important thing: being on a jury sucks. It really sucks. You have to miss work, maybe missing wages and getting in hot water with your boss. You have to sit in a hot, uncomfortable courtroom for hours and pay attention to boring lawyers drone on and on. Maybe, if you’re really unlucky, you’ll have to be torn away from your family and home and sequestered in a shitty hotel room. [/QUOTE] No, worse is death threats or even the actual carrying through of said threats, even against your family. ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/92 "2006-09-19T15:33:32Z")
[QUOTE=kittenblue] I’m a big lover of the suit-and-tie look. I really love to see men dressed that way. Find it a bit of a turn-on, actually. [/QUOTE] This common attitude is the main reason I _like_ to wear a suit and tie. In my experience, suit + tie = more smiles from women. Frankly, I don’t see the downside. Of course, it doesn’t hurt that I like the way I feel when I look sharp. As far as a jury goes, my instinctive reaction would be to wear business casual because that’s what I wear to work every day. I wouldn’t be put out, though, if the judge requested that I wear a tie. I’d wear a jacket too, in that event – I’ve always thought a shirt and tie look incomplete without a jacket. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/93 "2006-09-19T15:47:52Z")
Regarding jury duty: I have served, and it wasn’t all that bad an experience . However, trials are conducted at a leisurely pace, and I think what I went through (4 days) could have been wrapped up in two days. As for dressing up-some lawyers seem to project an image of tattiness-worn-down shoes, out-of-date clothes, etc.-is that a part of their strategy? (I heard that OJ’s lawyers took special care to wear the right color ties-something about jury impressions. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/94 "2006-09-19T16:42:56Z")
[QUOTE=constanze] Which I don’t get - how can any adult man in western society, as long as he’s literate, be unable to knot a tie? Yes, he may not have learned it when growing up, and he may not have needed it during his job so far. But there’s the internet. There’s the public library with a book on 20 or 50 different types of knots, with nice little pictures. You can ask an older male friend or relative. (And although I’m female, I know this because some guys have forgotten which part goes where to tie the knot after not doing it for the last 20 or 30 years, so they go and look it up.) [/QUOTE] There’s also [www.tie-a-tie.net](http://www.tie-a-tie.net), for those modern tie-wearers. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/95 "2006-09-19T17:16:23Z")
Kudos to the judge for asking jurors to dress in a manner befitting the formality of the occasion, though maybe he shouldn’t be so specific-- as others have said, there are modes of formal dress that don’t necessarily include a tie. As **Sarahfeena** stated, clothes are just a symbol, but in our culture that symbol conveys an important meaning and IMHO it’s a mark of immaturity to pretend that isn’t the case. **Khangol** , please post more often. You are awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/96 "2006-09-19T17:42:35Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I want my personality and intelligence to stand out, not my clothing. Being the only person in the room wearing jeans and a t-shirt when everyone else is clad in business attire does make you stand out, and not in a good way. [/QUOTE] The reverse is also true. I don’t know about you, but I find being overdressed just as uncomfortable as under. Most people have a higher attention-from-others tolerance than I, though. I’m not anti-tie, by the way. I just think that one does not necessarily equate to being dressed acceptably for a courtroom - there are a ton of reasonable variations. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/97 "2006-09-19T18:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Regarding jury duty: I have served, and it wasn’t all that bad an experience . However, trials are conducted at a leisurely pace, and I think what I went through (4 days) could have been wrapped up in two days. As for dressing up-some lawyers seem to project an image of tattiness-worn-down shoes, out-of-date clothes, etc.-is that a part of their strategy? (I heard that OJ’s lawyers took special care to wear the right color ties-something about jury impressions. [/QUOTE] I rather liked serving. I agree that the case moved at a glacial pace, and as an engineer I was appalled. I felt we were back in the 19th century, except for the PowerPoint opening statement. But it is one place where the logic we practice here on the Dope actually has a significant impact on the world. If I had to wear a tie, I might not have felt so good about it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/98 "2006-09-19T18:29:29Z")
I don’t think a tie should be required for a duty that is mandatory for all citizens (and I know it’s not a requirement in this example). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/99 "2006-09-19T18:29:53Z")
[QUOTE=Khangol] Not really their fault, probably. They simply never learned. Their parents didn’t teach them, and certainly the school system wouldn’t. They were taught from early childhood that it was their rebelliousness and vulgarity that made them so very special, and they figure dressing and behaving like a guttersnipe for all circumstances and occasions is a cool way to rebel against – whatever they think they’re rebelling against, I guess. For some people, adolescence just never really ends, and they’re actually smug about their refusal to enter adulthood. They grew up admiring Andrew Dice Clay, and never heard of David Niven. More’s the pity. Clothes don’t make the man (or woman). But attire, carriage, bearing, grooming, posture and manner of speech certainly do give a good indication of what type of man he is. [/QUOTE] I’m considerably older than 20 (or 30, or 40). And I have heard of Davids Niven, in fact I’ve never seen anything by Andrew Dice Clay, and quite a bit by Niven. Maybe you don’t get that context is everything. In my field, an experienced person showing up to an interview in a suit would be considered just as clueless as one showing up in shorts. (We excuse kids doing it for not knowing any better.) No one wore ties, or suits on the jury I was a part of. They showed respect for the court and the process in a far more important way: they listened attentively to the case, they came on time, and they deliberated appreciating the seriousness of the matter. In the hotbeds of innovation where I work, I’ve never seen intellectual ability correlated to dress. The people who are building the future in America aren’t the ones wearing suits. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886/100 "2006-09-19T18:34:35Z")
Just to add to the anecdotal evidence about tie-tying - I can tie both long ties and bow ties, but only on other people (I am female). If I had to wear a tie myself, I’d have to tie it on someone else, loosen it, put it around my own neck, and tie it again. I have no idea how I’d manage to put a bow tie on myself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-jurors-wear-a-tie-man/372886.md?page=6)