# Judge to woman groped in a bar: "If you wouldn't have been there that night, none of this would..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934 "2012-09-07T00:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/41 "2012-09-07T13:59:47Z")
> [@Kaypea](#): > > Hi! I live in beautiful Coconino County and I’m pissed off by this judges outrageous comments. A friend and I started a petition to have the judge step down. Would any of you be willing to sign it and perhaps even share it? Thank you very much! Continually embarrassed AZ resident. Signed! > [@kanicbird](#): > > She should be able to there and not be groped but in the real world can she or any of us really expect this? I could write angry paragraphs in reply to this, but really all I need to say is: Yes. Everyone should be able to go out to a public gathering place and 100% expect to NOT be assaulted. > [@kanicbird](#): > > We are not perfect and can not follow rules or laws perfectly and need mercy at times for being human in this world. :smack: We’re not talking about a speeding ticket here, we’re talking about Sexual Assault. I’m imperfect and I’m sure I break rules and laws all the time (knowingly and unknowingly) and yet, somehow, I manage to keep my hands to myself unless I have express invitation. Please do not lump this guy’s actions in a category of “Oh, well, we’re all human and make mistakes, we should show him mercy for not being perfect”. It’s insulting. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/42 "2012-09-07T14:04:25Z")
By the way, I’m frankly a little (not a lot, but a little) offended by the use of the term “groping” in the headline of the article - a drunk off-duty cop put his hand up her skirt and ran his fingers across her genitals, which to me sounds more like “sexual assault”. “Groping”, IMHO, is when some asshole pats your ass or grabs at your boobs; it’s almost a “boys will be boys” word. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/43 "2012-09-07T14:15:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > She should be able to there and not be groped but in the real world can she or any of us really expect this? > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Do you really think the woman’s never heard that before? Ever? From her parents, from her friends, from society as a whole? Because maybe if she was raised in a bubble, the judge might think that bit of advice was worthwhile to convey. > > … > > Shit like that is why women often **don’t** make a big deal about being groped. They think maybe they deserved it because of what they did or failed to do, or at least, people will think they did. Exactly. We’ve been very good at culturally raising girls to believe that if they look too sexy or go to a bar it’s at least partially their fault if they get assaulted; wouldn’t it be better if we were as good at teaching the boys that they bear the responsibility for NOT ASSAULTING PEOPLE? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/44 "2012-09-07T14:37:52Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That reminds me of a comedian I heard years ago that was talking about someone that was at a gas station and got hit by a stray bullet and the news anchor mentioned that he was “at the wrong place at the wrong time” The comedian said “The wrong place at the wrong time? Where do you go when your tank’s on E?” > [@silenus](#): > > If you find out, tell **OMGaBC**. He’s been running on empty for quite a while now. Where’s the +1 button on this thing…? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/45 "2012-09-07T14:39:03Z")
This reminds me of one of thse “We need feminism because…” photos that went around a while ago. It read “We need feminism because we teach women ‘Don’t get raped’ instead of teaching men ‘Don’t rape’”. I think this judge and **OMGaBC** just proved this point. ---
**Author:** ![Vita\_Beata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@Vita\_Beata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vita_Beata)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/46 "2012-09-07T14:39:03Z")
Judge Jacqueline Hatch needs to be voted out so she can go rest her weary mind. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/47 "2012-09-07T14:49:35Z")
> [@Vita\_Beata](#): > > Judge Jacqueline Hatch needs to be voted out so she can go rest her weary mind. Well, if she weren’t in the courthouse that day, none of this would have happened. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/48 "2012-09-07T14:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > “If you wouldn’t have been there that night, none of this would have happened to you,” Hatch said. Un-goddamn-believable. I have no words to describe the rage I feel at this statement. I was at a concert at a bar in a different city about 2 hours away. I was wearing what I call my “concert-going pants” - leopard spotted spandex jeans - and I am a 5’ 4", 108 lb female. On my way to the coat check after the show some asshole literally SMACKED MY ASS - HARD - and said “Fuck those pants are sexy, man!” IT FUCKING HURT. It even left a mark. Lucky for that guy I immediately went calm - not ballistic like I should have - because all I saw was the 2 hour road trip home late at night and didn’t want to make it any later by getting into a bar fight. According to this crazy judge’s logic, if I hadn’t been at that concert wearing those awesome pants I wouldn’t have been physically assaulted? What the hell planet does this whackjob live on? I’m going go to whatever the hell concerts I want and wear whatever the hell pants I want. I don’t understand why the victim in this case decided to go through the hassle of calling the cops and pressing charges, etc - why not simply cuss the guy out, kick him in the nuts and carry on? There seems to be no point in getting the courts involved anymore when they’re only going to blame the victim. This guy got off because he’s a cop, plain & simple. Happens all the time. He should have been dealt with when the offense occured. /rant ---
**Author:** ![Vita\_Beata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@Vita\_Beata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vita_Beata)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/49 "2012-09-07T15:01:20Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Well, if she weren’t in the courthouse that day, none of this would have happened. :rolleyes: Good point! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/50 "2012-09-07T15:03:50Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > By the way, I’m frankly a little (not a lot, but a little) offended by the use of the term “groping” in the headline of the article - a drunk off-duty cop put his hand up her skirt and ran his fingers across her genitals, which to me sounds more like “sexual assault”. “Groping”, IMHO, is when some asshole pats your ass or grabs at your boobs; it’s almost a “boys will be boys” word. Agree 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/51 "2012-09-07T15:22:23Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Arizona. Figures. Isn’t it interesting that some of the most conservative places, the ones that rant the most about “shariah law” seeping into America - those are the places that seem to want to treat women in a similar fashion as they are treated under Islamic law? Can’t go to bars, not alone, nosirree. And _ **certainly** _ not dressed like that … you better have a veil on, sister! Cover those ankles, you might get the good ol’ boys all het up, and then there’s no stopping them. All in good fun, you see. And you should have known better! I realize some of the similarities between our religious right and Islamic fundamentalists (whom they hate so much, they see them even where they don’t exist) have been pointed out before, but damn. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/52 "2012-09-07T15:23:04Z")
> [@Vita\_Beata](#): > > Judge Jacqueline Hatch needs to be voted out so she can go rest her weary mind. … presumably, not in a bar. Because you know what she invites by going there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/53 "2012-09-07T15:33:45Z")
I was a legal secretary in Seattle in the 70’s. My boss and her client came back from a court hearing where they’d applied for a restraining order and they were both livid. The judge had said to the client “Maybe you shouldn’t have married a black man.” ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/54 "2012-09-07T15:35:48Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > To the OP, you read that article and it is the _judges_ comments you find most pit worthy? Scroll down and read what the cops pals have to say, it can be summarized as saying “WTF are you punishing him for, he was just having some fun”. The comments by his friends are just as bad. They’re whining he might lose his hunting license. Maybe if he didn’t believe that everything within his reach is fair game this would not have happened in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/55 "2012-09-07T15:57:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > To the OP, you read that article and it is the _judges_ comments you find most pit worthy? Scroll down and read what the cops pals have to say, it can be summarized as saying “WTF are you punishing him for, he was just having some fun”. True. But a judge is supposed to be more, well, judicial. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/56 "2012-09-07T16:04:29Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I’d prefer to see a transcript rather than a reporters summary, although it is difficult to see how it could be incredibly out of context. Nah- I’ve read this several times now and the guy comes across as a scumbag and the statement by the Judge seems extraordinary. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/57 "2012-09-07T16:14:23Z")
That the judge said it is probably outside of her duties and certainly the way that she said it was, but I think there’s validity to the underlying point that I think the judge was trying to make. At least from my perspective, it is by no means the a victim’s fault when they are victimized, but there are lessons to be learned about awareness of one’s situation and ways that the entire situation could have been avoided. For instance, I had a few friends who, when we were in high school, were really into the whole goth thing. When we’d go places, they’d get stares, and going into stores and such they’d get followed around and watched because, presumably, they thought they might be shoplifting. One of them complained, and I pointed out that you can’t dress like that and then be surprised when people stare or watch you closely when you’re in the store or whatever. It’s not their fault so to say, since they weren’t doing anything wrong, but it wasn’t exactly unexpected responses. One of them stopped, the other didn’t really care and kept with it for a while. This case is different though, I think it’s a bit unrealistic to try to draw attention to that because, while it’s certainly not a huge surprise that someone at a bar might touch someone else inappropriately, there aren’t really any reasonable precautions one might take to prevent that from happening that doesn’t also fundamentally defeat the purpose, like simply not going as it seems the judge suggested. Hell, the woman could completely avoid ever being touched against if she just never left her house. But what happened to this woman is well outside of any reasonable expectations and couldn’t have been avoided without unreasonable precautions, and it was said in a pretty crude way, so… yeah, quite poor…umm…judgment on the part of the judge to lecture the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/58 "2012-09-07T16:19:21Z")
I agree, **Blaster**. There is never an excuse for sexually assaulting someone else, but everyone does have a responsibility to look after themselves as much as they can. There was a story in Calgary last week of a woman who was sexually assaulted while she sat in her car texting at night (the perpetrator jumped in her passenger door). My initial response to the story was, who sits in their car at night without locking their doors? Yes, we should be able to do that without being sexually assaulted, but in the real world, I lock my car doors every time I get in my car. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/59 "2012-09-07T16:49:58Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yeah, bitch should know her place. What was she doing out of the kitchen? Got lost on her way to the bedroom I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/60 "2012-09-07T17:46:52Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The comments by his friends are just as bad. They’re whining he might lose his hunting license. Maybe if he didn’t believe that everything within his reach is fair game this would not have happened in the first place. I also find it hard to care. You know, if he wouldn’t have been there that night, none of this would have happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934.md?page=4)