# Judge to woman groped in a bar: "If you wouldn't have been there that night, none of this would..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934 "2012-09-07T00:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/141 "2012-09-10T02:24:27Z")
**Whack-a-mole** : I’m inclined to agree. I was basically leaving myself an out as “Nothing” is a strong word. **Jamicat** : I’m all for prudence, but I see some problems with your risk assessment. “If you don’t want to hit by falling anvils, don’t walk on the street.” “If you don’t want to get skin cancer, never go out in the sun without a long-sleave shirt, gloves and a wide brim hat. Sunscreens are not 100% effective in practice.” “If you don’t want to get killed by a mugger, stay at home.” The point is not to get 100.000000000% safety. Prudent measures involve a cost/benefit analysis: there is such a thing as occupational risk and there are acceptable risks off the job as well. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/142 "2012-09-12T00:21:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I wouldn’t say you “deserve” to be admonished for it, but I also don’t think an admonishment would be out of line if it were to occur. Or, let me put it this way: if I were standing outside a bar with blood streaming down my face after having my head kicked in and an attending police officer were to point out that had I not been there in the first place my injuries would not have occurred, I would be much more inclined to chastisedly nod my head in agreement than to jump on my soapbox and screech about my right to be there. […] > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Perhaps getting it all out in the open would put an end to the endless cavalcade of snide remarks from you and your ilk who still like to pretend they hold the moral high ground on the issue. Well, if you wouldn’t have posted in that thread, none of the “snide remarks” would have happened to you. Messageboard disputes carry a high degree of risk of uncomplimentary responses, and you ought to have taken that into account. I realize that you can’t chastisedly (great adverb, btw!) nod your head in agreement via a messageboard, so we’ll take the will for the deed. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/143 "2012-09-12T22:33:21Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > A bit overblown. She wasn’t blaming the victim. She said the same thing most people have heard in their lifetimes; “you shouldn’t have been where you had no place of being”. Lynched blacks should have heeded this advice, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/144 "2012-09-12T22:50:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I wouldn’t say you “deserve” to be admonished for it, but I also don’t think an admonishment would be out of line if it were to occur. Or, let me put it this way: if I were standing outside a bar with blood streaming down my face after having my head kicked in and an attending police officer were to point out that had I not been there in the first place my injuries would not have occurred, I would be much more inclined to chastisedly nod my head in agreement than to jump on my soapbox and screech about my right to be there. That’s because you’re a craven authority-figure-worshipping moron. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/145 "2012-09-12T23:12:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course, black people shouldn’t go into bars either (at least those in white neighborhoods), just in case someone decides to beat them up. One needn’t worry. They will be stopped on the way to the bar by the police for the crime of Driving While Black. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/146 "2012-09-12T23:16:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > “…have happened to you.” (ran out of room in the title) > > I’m speechless that a judge, of all people, would say such a thing. A female judge in particular. > > Note I am making no comment on whether the defendant got a just punishment. It is the judge’s rhetoric I find shocking. Yep. Classic victim-blaming. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/147 "2012-09-12T23:17:21Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > A bit overblown. She wasn’t blaming the victim. She said the same thing most people have heard in their lifetimes; “you shouldn’t have been where you had no place of being”. Like in a [sunset town?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/148 "2012-09-12T23:19:07Z")
> [@ohnodano](#): > > This fails. You can apply this argument to literally any situation outside of your home. > (Inside as well) "Walked outside the front door onto the sidewalk and got mugged? Bad things can happen to you on sidewalks. You should think twice before leaving your house. Try to be more responsible next time." ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/149 "2012-09-13T00:51:13Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > That’s because you’re a craven authority-figure-worshipping moron. No, it’s because I have a brain, and because I’m honest. In the scenario you reference, my brain would recognize that I did indeed choose to put myself in a place of increased risk, and my sense of honesty would compel me to acknowledge that. My brain also allows me to asess risk realistically rather than to ignore it out of a misguided sense of sexual politics. “She asked for it” as a defense for rape is victim-blaming and wrong; “If you go to bars you might get groped or get your head kicked in” is Common Sense 101. Anyone who chooses to ignore this reality in the belief that political correctness will protect them from drunken shitkickers does so at their own peril. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/150 "2012-09-13T03:03:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > My brain also allows me to asess risk realistically rather than to ignore it out of a misguided sense of sexual politics. “She asked for it” as a defense for rape is victim-blaming and wrong; “If you go to bars you might get groped or get your head kicked in” is Common Sense 101. Anyone who chooses to ignore this reality in the belief that political correctness will protect them from drunken shitkickers does so at their own peril. Here is a perfect example of where the word “groped” fails us. A quick ass grab while in a bar may be unwelcome but probably not worth calling the police over. Such things happen in bars and not worth making a federal case over it. But what if you were in a bar and the guy next to you (who you’ve never met) reached in your pants and grabbed your cock. Are you going to be a bit more put out? I am betting you probably would (or even if you personally wouldn’t most people would be). The guy in this case reached up her skirt and fondled her genitals so about equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/151 "2012-09-13T04:02:28Z")
Sometimes in the course of human events it becomes necessary to admit that one is wrong. This is one of those times. In the midst of preparing my rebuttal that a better analogy would be if a guy were to stick his hands down my pants at a gay bar, I realized that in truth I’d be pissed as well if someone were to admonish me for having gone to a gay bar in the first place. Yours was a good post and also an example of how reason rather than passion can change a person’s view. I retract my defense of the judge and apologize for my remarks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/152 "2012-09-13T13:22:03Z")
I’m not sure what to say about what the judge said. But I’ll tell you this. I feel a lot safer overall now that I don’t go to bars anymore. I’m not talking about all bars. But there are many popular bars frequented by the rough crowd or drunks who can go into a moments rage or take liberties with others. It is a good idea to avoid bars in my opinion. I’d rather be with with people like you all who are sober. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/153 "2012-09-13T13:26:39Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m not sure what to say about what the judge said. But I’ll tell you this. I feel a lot safer overall now that I don’t go to bars anymore. I’m not talking about all bars. But there are many popular bars frequented by the rough crowd or drunks who can go into a moments rage or take liberties with others. > > It is a good idea to avoid bars in my opinion. I’d rather be with with people like you all who are sober. That doesn’t mean that if you did go to bars, you’d be fair game to assault. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/154 "2012-09-13T13:31:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That doesn’t mean that if you did go to bars, you’d be fair game to assault. Who said that ? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/155 "2012-09-13T13:43:47Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Who said that ? The judge. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/156 "2012-09-13T13:58:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I retract my defense of the judge and apologize for my remarks. Well done. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/157 "2012-09-13T14:00:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well done. Thanks. Yes, well done. Respect meter reading went up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934/158 "2012-09-25T17:05:10Z")
Not sure how I missed this thread, and I see the judge “apologized”, but still. Taken to their logical conclusion, her remarks suggest that women shouldn’t go anywhere alcohol is served. Football games, restaurants, nightclubs, office Christmas parties, weddings… > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yours was a good post and also an example of how reason rather than passion can change a person’s view. I retract my defense of the judge and apologize for my remarks. Kudos, sir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judge-to-woman-groped-in-a-bar-if-you-wouldnt-have-been-there-that-night-none-of-this-would/633934.md?page=7)