# Judgement Day - an athiest has questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748 "2003-02-13T03:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/21 "2003-02-13T17:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky \* be irrelevant)? > \*\*4. While someone is being judged, what would everyone else be doing? \*\* This one will take some research. There is, to my understanding, a contradiction in Hadith. a. From death to Judgement Day being accompanied by the two angels who recorded your good and bad deeds. They will either be taunting you about your destination or questioning you about your faith. b. Unconcious (This is the basis for my answer to #5, {which I should of posted with this,} when Muhammed said that the Jews deserved respect because their prophet awoke on Judgement Day before he .) c. First ‘a’ until Judgement Day and then ‘b.’ ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/22 "2003-02-13T17:56:52Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Do all major religions have one? I’m rethinking this. While its directly equivicable, some Hindu and some Buddhist sects do have an idea of a final ending to one’s life. Its just that they don’t view it as happening all at once. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/23 "2003-02-13T18:11:22Z")
First, a comment: my first thread moved the GD, Woo Hoo! (I guess). Thanks for all the input despite its ensuing confusion. As I tell all my friends when discussing the topic: If I’m right, we’ll never know. If you’re right, we’ll all know. To add to the mix: Let’s say you have accepted Jesus as your savior AND you have committed minor “offenses”, what happens? A heavenly slap on the wrist? A few years in hell as punishment? Any references to such in the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/24 "2003-02-13T18:36:14Z")
Hmmm, I see that I was mistaken, Lib. I was reading from the American Standard Version in which the cast of characters was not clear to me. However, you’ve cited John 5:22. Does that passage not end at John 5:30 with Jesus saying “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me?” Does this not imply that Jesus not only, as you say has the authority to judge, but has either exercised, or intends to exercise, that authority? ---
**Author:** ![Dragline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@Dragline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragline)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/25 "2003-02-13T18:39:46Z")
And what about praying for the recently departed? That one always gets me. I picture god about to launch one of the losers in his lottery into the fiery depths, but then he goes, “Whups, hold the show, we’ve got a prayer coming in from Aunt Daisy, I didn’t think she’d do that!” or “Sorry about that, you only got about 20 or so half hearted prayers. That’s not good enough - suffer, bitch!” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/26 "2003-02-13T18:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > \*\*Hmmm, I see that I was mistaken, Lib. I was reading from the American Standard Version in which the cast of characters was not clear to me. > > However, you’ve cited John 5:22. Does that passage not end at John 5:30 with Jesus saying “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but Him who sent me?” Does this not imply that Jesus not only, as you say has the authority to judge, but has either exercised, or intends to exercise, that authority? \*\* No. Merely being capable of right judgment or possessing judgment that is just does not compel Him to use His judgment against us. I still think He made Himself very clear. He does not judge us. He merely sets the moral standard, and then we decided for ourselves. (Tip o’ the hat to you, UncleBeer, for admitting to a mistake.) ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/27 "2003-02-13T19:01:58Z")
**Lib,** > [@](#): > > We will judge ourselves by His standard, which He makes plain in John 12:48: “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” But we tend to forget that, in the Gospel of John, Jesus is described as _being_ the word… “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.” Also, your cites so far are contemporary with the audience to whom Jesus was speaking. He was saying that his purpose _on earth_ was not to pass judgement at that time…that would come later. Revelation paints a pretty vivid picture of Christ as avenger, and God as judge. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/28 "2003-02-13T19:07:13Z")
I understand your rationalizations, but what Jesus says makes sense to me. Our choices are our judgment. Here is God: do you like what you see or not? We all already know whether we accept Him or not. His judgment would be superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/29 "2003-02-13T19:21:05Z")
**Mr. Blue Sky,** > [@](#): > > Let’s say you have accepted Jesus as your savior AND you have committed minor “offenses”, what happens? A heavenly slap on the wrist? A few years in hell as punishment? Any references to such in the Bible? The bible, particularly the writings of Paul, indicate that salvation (or redemption) is a permanent condition, and is irrevocable, regardless of your actions. Were it not so, Christ would have had to die every time you committed an offense. There is no punishment for the righteous (i.e., those who have accepted Christ as saviour), merely a reduction in heavenly reward, if you will. Christians strive to follow the teachings of the bible as closely as possible, but it is understood that we are human, and will fall into temptations. You might want to read Romans 6 in the New International Version, where Paul addresses grace and how it is sufficient for all our transgressions, past, present and future. Of course, the entire book of Romans is a treatise on that exact theme. As long as we recognize our faults (and even the ones we don’t), and then confess them _to the God in prayer_, then he is faithful and just to forgive us of those faults/sins/transgressions. We don’t have to confess to another living soul, and there is no middle ground…if you confess it, it’s forgiven, period. (I wish I had exact chapter/verse for that, but I don’t have it handy. Anyone else can cite??) ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/30 "2003-02-13T20:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DirkGntly \* > \*\ ***Mr. Blue Sky,** > > You might want to read Romans 6 in the New International Version, where Paul addresses grace and how it is sufficient for all our transgressions, past, present and future. Of course, the entire book of Romans is a treatise on that exact theme. > As long as we recognize our faults (and even the ones we don’t), and then confess them _to the God in prayer_, then he is faithful and just to forgive us of those faults/sins/transgressions. We don’t have to confess to another living soul, and there is no middle ground…if you confess it, it’s forgiven, period. (I wish I had exact chapter/verse for that, but I don’t have it handy. Anyone else can cite??) \*\* To Christians: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I don’t know that I agree that we should never confess to anyone else. If we’ve done a major wrong to someone I believe we should apologize or ask forgiveness to restore the relationship and fellowship. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/31 "2003-02-13T20:55:27Z")
Is tax collecting a sin? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/32 "2003-02-13T23:41:15Z")
I don’t know about you guys, but I plan on circumventing Judgement Day with an Austrian android. FWIW, I think the idea is specious at best. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/33 "2003-02-14T00:53:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I understand your rationalizations, but what Jesus says makes sense to me. Our choices are our judgment. Here is God: do you like what you see or not? We all already know whether we accept Him or not. His judgment would be superfluous. \*\* **Lib** , I appreciate your stance on this issue. If I read you correctly, your position is that each person will, faced with the truth and love of God, honestly comprehend all sin, thus judging or condemning himself. I agree, as far as it goes. There will be no parsing of the word ‘is’ at that moment. It does, however, seem abundantly clear that God will then pronounce judgment on each person, based on one’s ‘choices’, as you put it. If you disagree, please clarify your understanding of the various verses concerning judgment, such as Matthew 13:36-43, 47-50, 25:31-35 and Rev. 20:13-15. As to your question whether tax collection is a sin; in a word, no. Jesus did not instruct tax collectors to “go and sin no more” as he did other people on occasion, he did direct that Caesar be given what belonged to Caesar, i.e., taxes, when presented with the issue by the Pharisees. John the Baptist, when queried by tax collectors, merely instructed them to collect no more than required. Paul, in Romans 12:6-7, also directs his fellow Christians to pay taxes as required. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/34 "2003-02-14T01:24:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky \* > \*\*Just because I’m an athiest doesn’t mean I’m not curious about various religions and such. So here’s a few questions about Judgement Day: > > 1. Do all major religions have one? > > 2. According to some segments of Christianity, if you don’t accept Jesus as your savior, you don’t get into Heaven. If this is true, what’s the point of God judging you? Or are the two events mutually exclusive? > > 3. How long do you think it’d take to judge everyone who has ever lived (ignoring that time would probably be irrelevant)? > > 4. While someone is being judged, what would everyone else be doing? > > 5. What order would eveyone be judged in? Alphabetical or chronological? Something else? > > 6. Would everyone be dressed in the clothes they died in, or would everyone be naked? \*\* According to near death experiences, yes, there will be a judgement. 1. There are no religions or religious doctrine in the spirit world, so this question is irrelevant. 2. Each person is judged as he crosses over into the spirit world. 3. Anything they wished. 4. As you enter into the spirit world. 5. Neither, no form is necessary. And, of course, the most important, who does the judgeing, you do. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/35 "2003-02-14T13:29:58Z")
I went to [Crosswalk.com](http://Crosswalk.com) under Bible study tools and looked up the word judgment. In the New Testament the word comes up 74 times. I don’t see anywhere in the Scripture where we are going to be the ones judging ourselves. Not so, God does the judging. As I’ve said before and will say again; near death experiences, in my humble opinion, aren’t what spiritual truth is based on. God’s word is what truth is based on. Matthew 7:2, 12:36 John 5:27 Romans 2:5 2 Peter 3:7, 2:4, 2:9 To name just a few. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/36 "2003-02-14T13:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Is tax collecting a sin? \*\* I don’t think tax collectin is a sin. I imagine Jesus’ words against them may have been due to their unethical practices of over taxation and maybe pocketing some of the money perhaps. If there weren’t any taxes how would the government operate? Unless we all agreed to do completely away with money, of course, and just share all things. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/37 "2003-02-14T15:12:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I don’t think tax collectin is a sin. I imagine Jesus’ words against them may have been due to their unethical practices of over taxation and maybe pocketing some of the money perhaps. > If there weren’t any taxes how would the government operate? Unless we all agreed to do completely away with money, of course, and just share all things. \*\* You don’t ? Do you have any evidence to back the claim that tax collectors as a rule were embezzling ? You don’t work for the IRS do you 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/38 "2003-02-14T15:31:10Z")
:eek: Noooo, I don’t work for the IRS, but I do work for the government. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/39 "2003-02-14T15:36:30Z")
**NaSultainne and His4ever** I might open a separate thread on tax collecting at some point, but right now I’d like to deal with questions regarding judgment, specifically dealing with the passages cited by y’all. \*\*Matthew 13:36-43, 47-50, 25:31-35 \*\* Funny thing is, I often cite this passage in support of my own view. As Jesus says at the end of it, “He who has ears, let him hear.” I take Jesus and God as John describes Him as axiomatic: God is Love, and Jesus is the Word of God. Whatever might contradict those truths must be false. Therefore, either this passage of Matthew is wrong, or else it must be interpreted in the light of Jesus’ clear and plain declaration that He does not judge, and neither does His Father. It is downright weird to say that a passage like this one, which makes no mention of judgment at all, contradicts a passage like John 8:15, where Jesus specifically says that He judges no one. Bending that, as His4ever did, to mean no one standing in front of Him at the time is just bizarre, particularly given that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees! In this Matthew passage, Jesus is talking about the purging of sin itself. If love is the facilitation of goodness (and I believe that it is), then sin is the obstruction of goodness. All obstructions to goodness are to be removed. There is no indication that the angels are making judgments. They are merely doing the work of severing those who have themselves chosen to turn from God such that they are no longer an obstruction to those who have chosen to turn _to_ God. Same same with the parable of the net. In order to interpret this as judgment, you have to say that it is the angels who are judging since they are the ones who are separating the wicked from the righteous. But no one has ever said that angels judge us, and they are not judging us in this passage. They are merely God’s messengers and are doing work for His kingdom. Likewise for the sheep and the goats. They are being separated, but that does not mean that they are being judged. By the time the separation has begun, the sheep and the goats have already made their moral decisions. **Rev. 20:13-15** Who can possibly know what anything in Revelation means? 🙂 I concern myself almost exclusively with the Gospels (and mostly with John). It is my opinion that what Jesus teaches is sufficient. And I do not trust Roman politicians to discern truth from fiction. But that said, perhaps the “Book of Life” mentioned in this passage is like a guest registry at a funeral. Whoever is not in it is someone who did not wish to sign in, and thereby has judged himself. Nowhere does the passage say who wrote the names or what the people did. **Matthew 7:2** I already dealt with this passage. **Matthew 12:36** This passage supports what I’m saying if it is placed back into its context with the preceding verse (35): “The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.” This is clearly self-judgment. The good man will seek out goodness and accept God. The evil man will obstruct goodness and reject God. **John 5:27** Another verse torn from it context. Just before it, it says (22): “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son”. Wiggle all you please, but if you change “the Father judges no one” into something else, you are changing the scripture. As I explained before, yes Jesus has _authority_ to judge. That is because He can see into the hearts of men. But having the authority does not mean that He is _required_ to judge. A governer has the authority to pardon a criminal, but that does not mean that he will use his authority. And in fact, Jesus says plainly that He will not use His authority to judge. Again, John 8:15: “You judge by human standards; **I pass judgment on NO ONE**.” (Emphasis mine.) **Romans 2:5** I don’t normally give a lot of credence to Paul. He is, after all, not Jesus. But here Paul gets it right, as you can see by the verses that follow, including (7 and 8): “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” Self-judgment again. People simply finding what they seek. **2 Peter 3:7, 2:4, 2:9** These passages merely speak of a day of judgment. They say nothing about who judges whom. Now, if for some reason, you still believe that Jesus does not mean it when He says that neither He nor His Father judges us, kindly explain why. Other than just because what the preachers and high holy poobahs have always said. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/40 "2003-02-14T15:41:26Z")
Oh, and His4ever, if you want to get stuck on the words “self-judgment” not appearing in the (English) Bible, I submit that you have no basis to believe in a “trinity”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748.md?page=3)