# Judgement Day - an athiest has questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748 "2003-02-13T03:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/41 "2003-02-14T15:48:10Z")
I believe I did say something in another post that I thought that Jesus was talking about the present (when He was on earth). He didn’t come to judge then, that judgment comes later. Are you saying that you don’t think there is any kind of judgment going to be given by God ever? Also, there is possibly differing kinds of judgment. That’s a big subject to get into. But I don’t see the future as holding no kind of judgment at all regardless of who you think metes it out. You seem to think that we judge ourselves by the moral choices we make, correct? Well, who is the One who judges the morality of our choices? Isn’t that God? This can get confusing!😕 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/42 "2003-02-14T17:33:07Z")
**His4ever** Don’t be confused. His message is simple if you will just accept it. Confusion comes when we try to fit His message around our own assumptions. As I said, there is a judgment. But God tells the truth. He does not judge us. God is Himself the Moral Standard — the Light of the World. It is that standard by which we are judged. Men see the light, and if they love the light they go to it so that they can be seen. But some men are repulsed by the light. They want themselves to remain hidden. Jesus came to bring light to the darkness so that those who love can see. “Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God” — John 3:20-21 Consider this: “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” — John 12:48 The blue is the self-judgement — accepting or rejecting. The red is the standard — the very things that Jesus taught. There is good reason that God says He will not judge us. It would be silly. He sees you running toward Him and says, “Ah! You accept me.” He sees you running away from Him and says, “Ah! You reject me.” All the angels together would go, “Oh, no duh!” ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/43 "2003-02-14T17:59:24Z")
We certainly shouldn’t impose our assumptions upon God. Now, here’s a description of how God allows us to judge ourselves, and here’s an interpretation of a scriptual quote taken out of context. Yes, of course it’s correct. Evidence? I don’t need any, it’s self evident. Clearly, the generally-accepted interpretations of the rest of Scripture are wrong. It’s so obvious. Now, hold on while I write an argument in modal logic that not only proves we judge ourselves, but that a time-travelling android from the future with a powerful gauntlet erases us from the time-stream if we find ourselves unworthy. [/Libertarian mode] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/44 "2003-02-14T18:05:34Z")
Vorlon, if you have some problem with me, take it to the Pit. If you have a point to make, make it. If you found a flaw in what I said, show it. Otherwise, shut up. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/45 "2003-02-14T18:10:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **If you have a point to make, make it.** I think I just _did_. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/46 "2003-02-14T18:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I went to [Crosswalk.com](http://Crosswalk.com) under Bible study tools and looked up the word judgment. In the New Testament the word comes up 74 times. I don’t see anywhere in the Scripture where we are going to be the ones judging ourselves. Not so, God does the judging. As I’ve said before and will say again; near death experiences, in my humble opinion, aren’t what spiritual truth is based on. God’s word is what truth is based on. > > Matthew 7:2, 12:36 > John 5:27 > Romans 2:5 > 2 Peter 3:7, 2:4, 2:9 > > To name just a few. \*\* Just telling you what the people who have been there and done that say. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/47 "2003-02-14T18:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I don’t think tax collectin is a sin. I imagine Jesus’ words against them may have been due to their unethical practices of over taxation and maybe pocketing some of the money perhaps. > If there weren’t any taxes how would the government operate? Unless we all agreed to do completely away with money, of course, and just share all things. \*\* The Romans would have tax collectors bid on certain territories. The collector would bid as much as he thought he could collect in taxes. The high bid won, and the tax collector was paid by whatever he could collect over and above his bid. This system worked for the Romans, but made tax collectors one of the most hated professions by the public. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/48 "2003-02-14T18:31:26Z")
Leroy! 🙂 Where’ve you been!? ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/49 "2003-02-15T03:26:05Z")
**His4ever:** I was referring to there being no need to confess to another person for there to be forgiveness from God for the offense. Christ is our direct mediator to God, so no human intervention is necessary. I do believe in person-to-person confession/forgiveness/reconciliation. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/50 "2003-02-15T03:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DirkGntly \* > **2.) There are variants, but as I understand it, basically when you die, you’re in ‘stasis’…the Apostle Paul said that “we will all sleep” until judgement.** Whoa! :eek: That sure seems to go against the usual Christian rigamarole about believers going straight to Heaven when they die! ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/51 "2003-02-15T03:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DirkGntly \* > \*\ ***His4ever:** > I was referring to there being no need to confess to another person for there to be forgiveness from God for the offense. Christ is our direct mediator to God, so no human intervention is necessary. I do believe in person-to-person confession/forgiveness/reconciliation. \*\* Okay, I got that straight now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/52 "2003-02-15T04:12:47Z")
**tracer** OOPS! I mis-quoted! That’s what I get for not looking up the actual reference. Here it is: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:50-52). In this instance, Paul is saying that there will be some alive at the last trumpet, who will be changed in form to an imperishable body. It is important to note though, that Paul states that “…the trumpet will sound, and **the dead will be raised imperishable,** and we shall be changed.” Implies rather succinctly that the dead are still in the ground and not in heaven. It is possible, however, though I don’t have a cite handy to prove or disprove it(I have GOT to get those reference programs re-installed on my computer!!), that the soul is in heaven while the corruptible body is waiting for the transformation…but this seems unlikely to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kempis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kempis/32/19248_2.png) [@Kempis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kempis)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/53 "2003-02-15T04:47:14Z")
It would be interesting to see how many religions have a judgement and how many don’t. I remember the Egyptian beliefs of weighing your heart against the a feather to see if the person is worthy (was that Anubis?) … and I remember the Japanese god Enma who decides who goes to heaven or hell. It seems a lot of the ancient religions had a judgement like this, if you’re good deeds outweighed/outnumbered your bad you went to heaven. Even some modern Christians believe that those people who don’t have a chance to hear the Gospel of Christianity (lived too long ago or too far away) are judged in this manner. As for those other questions, religions which answer such specific questions usually end with a drink of Kool-aid. The more general the opinion, the less chance for bloodshed, I’ve observed. However, that won’t comfort me much when I face my own death. ☹ -k ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/54 "2003-02-15T05:10:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Whoa! :eek: That sure seems to go against the usual Christian rigamarole about believers going straight to Heaven when they die! \*\* I Corinthians 15:44 Paul speaking: If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul again: Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Philippians 1:21-23 Paul speaking: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: **I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;** John 8:51 Jesus speaking: I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, **he will never see death.** Romans 6:23 Paul again: For the wages of sin is death, but the **gift of God is eternal life** in Christ Jesus our Lord. 1 Thessalonians 5:10 Paul again: He (Jesus) died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Now, I know this is a short, abbreviated selection of scripture, but I’m trying to quickly sketch a picture here; Man is triunal in nature, as is God. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Paul speaking: May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Physical death does not equate to death of the soul or spirit. As noted by Paul in the scripture above, to be absent from the body, or asleep, is to be present with the Lord. There is an abundance of scripture, including Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 to support this view. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/55 "2003-02-15T05:41:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* > Consider this: > > “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” — John 12:48 > > The blue is the self-judgement — accepting or rejecting. The red is the standard — the very things that Jesus taught. > > There is good reason that God says He will not judge us. It would be silly. He sees you running toward Him and says, “Ah! You accept me.” He sees you running away from Him and says, “Ah! You reject me.” All the angels together would go, “Oh, no duh!” \*\* 🙂 I picture the angels doing a collective “D’oh!” and it makes me laugh. Thanks for that. As to the issue at hand: I find your reasoning to be challenging. I’m mulling it over more thoroughly. I wonder, however, if we aren’t simply considering the door from differing sides. If we do not (necessarily) agree upon the constitution of the door/judge, do we agree as to the access to the door, and what awaits us on the other side? If you believe in self-judgment, tell me, what do you believe is the result of that final self-examination? Self-damnation? While I don’t subscribe to the _bridge of death_ theory, it seems abudantly clear that there is one path that leads directly to God. Anything else falls short. Paul delves quite deeply into the law as a standard for those who choose to rely upon it, but he’s more than blunt regarding its insufficiency to erase sin. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/56 "2003-02-15T06:05:31Z")
**NaSultainne,** Thanks for the clarification! I agree with you completely…I was merely at a loss for the scriptural references to back up the “traditional” view. Like I said in another thread, I’m not a biblical scholar, nor a Christian apologist… …nor do I play one on TV… …hmmm…I hope everyone understands that I find this good mental exercise, at the very least? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/57 "2003-02-15T14:37:40Z")
NuSultainne wrote: > [@](#): > > I wonder, however, if we aren’t simply considering the door from differing sides. If we do not (necessarily) agree upon the constitution of the door/judge, do we agree as to the access to the door, and what awaits us on the other side? If you believe in self-judgment, tell me, what do you believe is the result of that final self-examination? Self-damnation? Well, you get what you pray for. God is the Absolute. He is. That is Who He is. He is not what I conceive, or what you conceive, or what His4ever conceives. He is the Love Everlasting Who values goodness above any aesthetic. I can scarcely imagine a Being Who loves so perfectly. I can glimpse Him only briefly and through a dark filter from day to day. What little of His love that my weak constitution is willing to accept already fills me to overflowing. I cannot begin to conceive the effects of His full majesterial holiness. It is upon Who God really is that every man will make his judgment, not upon the weak, pale image of a god that I present, or that you present, or that His4ever presents. God really exists. And not one of us does Him justice when we represent Him to one another. What this means is that an atheist who proclaims, “I reject God,” is mistaken. He is not rejecting God; rather, he is rejecting a caricature of God that is presented to him by people like us. Likewise, the theist who proclaims, “I accept God,” is mistaken. He is not accepting God; rather, he is accepting his frail notion of Who God is. It is not until we see Him face to face that we will make our eternal moral decision. Many atheists who now say they do not believe in God will say then, “Yes! You are what I have searched for all my life!” And many theists who now say that they believe in God will say, “Who are you? You are not the one I was sure would vindicate me and smite my enemies!” You cannot hold a man morally accountable for rejecting an image of God that he has received through mediation, for that image is not God. God is presented by religionists as everything from a magic wish genie to a furious score-settler. The name “Jesus” is attached to everything from a doting pacifist to an angry warrior. His4ever might say that practicing homosexuals have rejected Christ. She would be wrong. What they have rejected is what she has packaged as Christ — a salivating gargoyle who guards the gate to hell, ensnaring the passers-by who are wearing the wrong buff. They are rejecting a Christ whom they have been told already rejects them. There is One Door. One Way. One Gate. Christ is the Way. But He is not my way, or your way, or His4ever’s way. He cannot be contained by the book called the Bible. He cannot be constrained by the label called Jesus. He did not come down through the ages to rule an anthill for a day. He is not the my-big-brother who can whip your-big-brother’s ass. And He is no one’s vindicator. He is the Living Love, the Facilitator of Goodness Who welcomes any and all who desire to be with Him. Those who love goodness are like Him, and they will go to Him when they see Him, even if all their lives they have rejected every caricature of Him that they have seen. Likewise, those who do not love goodness will not love Him, despite that all their lives they have shouted out His name like some patriotic mantra. Those who love goodness already know God at least in part. Not my God, your God, or His4ever’s God, but the Absolute God. Whether they call themselves atheists, Christians, Jews, or witches makes no difference. Talk is cheap. We are drawn to what we treasure, and where our treasure is, there our heart is also. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/58 "2003-02-15T15:49:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DirkGntly \* > \*\*As a slight hijack, let me say this: > I’ve seen debates where people can’t believe that God would be so cruel as to send someone to eternal damnation… > If I were in God’s shoes (I’m glad I’m not), and I sent my son to the earth with a message of peace and hope, KNOWING that he would be crucified…then go to all of the trouble of having him resurrected… > Well, I certainly wouldn’t have too much trouble with letting folks who don’t believe go to an eternal damnation. At least, that’s how I’d feel if I went to that kind of trouble and let you folks kill MY son, etc… > Boy there is a WHOLE different train of thought there, and I may just take it up in IMHO one day… \*\* So what my ancestors did 2,000 years ago is my responsibility? By that logic I assume you support reparations for slavery. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/59 "2003-02-15T15:54:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I understand your rationalizations, but what Jesus says makes sense to me. Our choices are our judgment. Here is God: do you like what you see or not? We all already know whether we accept Him or not. His judgment would be superfluous. \*\* This goes against many of the things Jesus reportedly said, as well as the entire Christian tradition of approximately two thousand years. And you claim those who disagree with you are rationalizing? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/60 "2003-02-15T16:04:59Z")
John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” John 8:26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.” John 9:39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” Later: Romans 2:2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. Romans 2:3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748.md?page=4)