# Judgement Day - an athiest has questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748 "2003-02-13T03:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/101 "2003-02-17T15:50:31Z")
Oh brother. :rolleyes: Specific bits of knowledge (such as the correct method to set a bear trap) probably aren’t useful for tasks in general for people in general. Knowledge _itself_ is useful. Without knowledge, nothing _can_ be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/102 "2003-02-17T16:04:32Z")
Then you acknowledge that our knowledge of God is useful? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/103 "2003-02-17T17:47:46Z")
_Only if it’s correct!_ What part of this don’t you understand?! It’s not that frickin’ hard! You don’t have knowledge of God, you have knowledge of an argument you make. You make assertions about the world based on the results of that argument. If God is real, then knowledge about God assists you in dealing with the world. If God isn’t real, then “knowledge” about God (other than His unreality and assigned characteristics) isn’t useful. You can believe whatever you like. You’ll still fall into the chasm. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/104 "2003-02-17T17:53:03Z")
Okay… if we can return to the subject of the OP for a moment… **Mr. Blue Sky** : There are about as many opinions about the nature of Judgment Day as there are people to ask about it. Short answer: no one really has any idea. There are various assertions from authority you might consult, but they contradict each other frequently (and occasionally themselves). They are difficult to interpret (and there are many assertions about interpretation as well). Thus, your guess is as good as anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/105 "2003-02-17T18:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Vorlon Ambassador’s Aide \* > \*\*_Only if it’s correct!_ > > What part of this don’t you understand?! It’s not that frickin’ hard! > > You don’t have knowledge of God, you have knowledge of an argument you make. You make assertions about the world based on the results of that argument. > > If God is real, then knowledge about God assists you in dealing with the world. If God isn’t real, then “knowledge” about God (other than His unreality and assigned characteristics) isn’t useful. > > You can believe whatever you like. You’ll still fall into the chasm. \*\* Thousands of Near Death Experiencers have first-hand knowledge of God. We are not guessing, we know, been there, done that, and loved it. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/106 "2003-02-17T18:13:46Z")
No, they have first-hand experience of NDE’s. We cannot determine whether they have first-hand experience of God. Why do you people keep confusing your thoughts for reality? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/107 "2003-02-17T18:14:34Z")
I was about to ask you the same thing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/108 "2003-02-17T18:31:10Z")
Hurray!! Thank you Vorlon for changing your user name! ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/109 "2003-02-17T19:04:03Z")
And you, TVAA, have firsthand experience of what is actually the ineffable will of God but you mistake for various immutable laws of nature. So nyar to you. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/110 "2003-02-17T19:44:43Z")
Laws of nature, will of God, what’s the difference? What matters is how these things manifest. If God “exists”, but His personhood never manifests to us, then God isn’t a person to us. It’s no different from contemplating impersonal laws of nature. This, of course, is the part of the reasoning behind pantheism. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/111 "2003-02-17T21:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*No, they have first-hand experience of NDE’s. We cannot determine whether they have first-hand experience of God. > > Why do you people keep confusing your thoughts for reality? \*\* First of all, it wasn’t my thoughts, it was my experience, and please don’t try to tell us we didn’t experience God, just because you can’t determine whether we did or not. The correct option is you don’t know. Stick with the truth. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/112 "2003-02-17T21:11:59Z")
Being convinced that your experience was contact with God doesn’t mean it was. The rest of us are not obligated to respect mere conviction. If you believe something, you’d better be able to offer a meaningful argument to support your position. Asserting that you experienced God doesn’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/113 "2003-02-18T04:07:08Z")
Your questioning of his contact with God doesn’t mean that he didn’t. If you want me to believe you, you’d better be able to offer a meaningful argument to support your position. Your assertion that he didn’t experience God doesn’t mean much. I recognize good fruit when I see it. So far, Lekatt’s ahead. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/114 "2003-02-18T04:56:01Z")
I’m not making an extraordinary claim, and so I don’t “want you to believe me”. **lekatt** is presenting an extraordinary claim: that his NDE was an experience of God. He is therefore required to present extraordinary arguments or extraordinary evidence in favor of his position. If I asserted that I was experiencing God right at this moment, and that He was granting me with incredible insights, you wouldn’t believe me, no matter how convinced I was that I was right. I see no reason to believe **lekatt** simply because he believes his own claims. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/115 "2003-02-18T05:06:37Z")
Sorry, **TVAA** , but I don’t find his claim extraordinary. It is you who does. As far as any claim you would make, I would listen to what you said and by its fruits, I will know. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/116 "2003-02-18T05:18:19Z")
“To know a tree by its fruits” is a metaphor for determining the true intentions of a person by the consequences of their actions. As a method of determining virtue, it’s crude and often ineffective. Determining the moral value of my statements by examining your emotional responses to them (as they have no other consequences that you could examine) doesn’t strike me as particularly valid. You’ll simply find that everything you disagree with is wrong. Surprise, surprise. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/117 "2003-02-18T08:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Being convinced that your experience was contact with God doesn’t mean it was. > > The rest of us are not obligated to respect mere conviction. If you believe something, you’d better be able to offer a meaningful argument to support your position. Asserting that you experienced God doesn’t mean much. \*\* My experience was real, it was something I will never forget, the greatest thing ever to happen to me. I am not obligated to prove anything to you about it. You have choices, you can believe me, not believe me, or just not judge it at all. But that is the logical limit of your choices, to call my experience false, or worse, is not within your knowledge. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/118 "2003-02-18T13:56:55Z")
First, at the very least, your claim is unjustified given your current evidence. Second, reports of NDE’s vary so widely in their details that the account of any one person is suspect. Third, Occam’s razor would suggest that you had a very intense hallucination. In the absence of other evidence, this is the most reasonable conclusion. Your adherence to your story is noted. Can we move on, please? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/119 "2003-02-18T15:40:50Z")
First, if you are the arbiter of what constitutes justification, then the world is in serious trouble. Second, demands for evidence vary so widely in their details that the demands of any one person is suspect. Third, you are violating Ockham’s Razor by introducing the unnecessary entity of directional causation. Your adherence to your subjective interpretation of reality is noted. Can we return to the topic, please? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748/120 "2003-02-18T15:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* > > Second, demands for evidence vary so widely in their details that the demands of any one person is suspect. > > \*\* Yes, but there must be proof if you are to have “evidence”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/judgement-day-an-athiest-has-questions/154748.md?page=7)