In other words…not just Lissa, but any boss at any McDonalds would find the ash smudge “creepy” and “unprofessional” for the workplace. You went beyond stating a personal reaction to someone’s appearance…and classified it as automatacally inappropriate for at least 2 different workplaces. That is what I have a problem with. (This is Great Debates, not IMHO )
Think a religious oriented smudge on my forehead 1 day out of the year is kind of odd? No problem.
Think a religious oriented smudge on my forehead is automatically inadmissable in a workplace environment…big problem.
Not at all. As I said, I see nothing “wrong” with wearing the ashes, only that some people might be concerned about the judge’s impartiality by seeing a blatant religious display.
Posted by ** beagledave ** *
**
I didn’t say that the boss would be correct in doing so, but I think a few of the bosses I have had would demand that the ashes be wiped off, one of which was a boss I had as a teenager in a McDonalds, which is why I used it as an example. Judges have more power than a counter person at McDonalds does, or feels that they do. Where no one would be likely to tell a judge to wipe them off, a manager in a McDonalds may, right or wrong. The counter person in such a situation might be upset, but unaware of the legal aspects, and might comply out of fear of losing their job. (The ACLU doesn’t take every single case which comes their way, and the counter person might not have enough money to hire a lawyer.)
Nor did I mean to say that every single person would view a cross of ashes as I do. Different people, different reactions.
By the way, ** Dinsdale, ** I’m very familiar with the concept of transubstantiation.
How does that not equal “wrong” for the workplace?
**
Good lord you backpedal so fast I’m getting whiplash. You said that a judge who had a smudge of ashes on his forehead one day would look “creepy” and be “unprofessional”. You THEN said
You didn’t say “some” misguided boss would fire him…you flat out stated that if the judge was a counter person at any MickeyDs…he would be forced to wipe the ashes off. You certainly did NOT qualify the statement with anything like “well the boss may be wrong to do so…” You connected the “professionalism” of the judge in a courtroom with the “professionalism” of a counter person at MickeyDs.
**
Assuming that the counter person brought it to the attention of the ACLU…I have a hard time believing that you couldn’t hear the salivation of the ACLU counsel a mile away.
**
Jeez. Again. You did NOT just express a personal opinion about ashes…like you might about say Britney Spears or hipster thongs…you declared that ashes on the forehead were…
UNPROFESSIONAL
To drive your point home…you said that a counter person at MickeyDs would be forced, BY HIS BOSS…NOT YOU… to wipe off the ashes.
This aint IMHO. This is not a place to state a personal preference about something in the place of a point one is trying to make.
You’re trying to have it both ways. You’re trying to make a point in Great Debates that it is unprofessional for a person to have ashes on their forehead at a place of business.
(Just like Dinsdale was trying to make a point about his concerns about judicial appearance. When challenged on the point…he provided further rational. I still disagree with his point…but he at least backed it up with a rationale instead of JUST saying, “well I didn’t say everyone thinks like I do”)
When called on it…you backpedal and say…“well it’s just my feelings about those icky ashes”
Some folks feel that jeans in the workplace are unprofessional, and others do not. It’s a matter of opinion of the supervisor. The judge, in essence, answers to no immediate superior on a daily basis who can declare whether something is “wrong” or not.
The outsider visiting that workplace is bound to form an opinion of their own. Some may have the opinion that it’s unprofessional, and some may feel differently. Opinions, by nature, are completely subjective.
My point was that some * may * have the same opinion as myself, and thus think differently about the judge. It could lead to an unnecessary appeal of the verdict because someone thinks they were discriminated against, whereas, if the judge’s face was clean, the thought may never occur to them.
**
Sorry I did not qualify my original statement to your satisfaction. I did not think that I needed to point out that the boss would be wrong to make such a demand-- I thought it would be obvious. I won’t make such an assumption in the future.
Sorry I insulted the judge by comparing him with a lowly burger-flipper.
I don’t necessarily think it’s “backpedalling” to further explain when asked to do so.
**
And I explained why I thought so when you called me on it. What more do you want?
When it comes to a case such as this, I cannot find cites to “prove” a point: it comes down to each individual’s personal opinion on whether they felt that the judge’s appearance was professional or not. I expressed mine. You expressed yours.
**
Okay. And? I guess I misunderstand your point. Mine was that a person of less power than a judge would most likely be asked to remove the ashes, whereas no one “bosses” a judge around. He pretty much has the discretion to do as he pleases in his courtroom, whereas a counter person at a fast-food joint must bow to what his supervisor deems “appropriate.”
**
And I think that the initial impression that a lay-person might have upon encountering a judge with ashes on his forehead is important. That’s all I was trying to say. A judge should be somewhat careful of the impression he makes, because ignorant slobs such as myself who are completely unused to the practice might be surprised and/or vaguely disturbed by his appearance.
As much as you hate me saying this, it is my * personal opinion * that facial markings, other than something small, neat and subtle like a bindi, are unprofessional-looking.
I told you why I felt that it was unprofessional, and further elaborated on why I felt so, and why someone in a position of lesser power wouldn’t be as free as the judge to display their faith. Again, what more can I do?
I feel compelled to note that never once have I used the word “icky.” Messy, and creepy, yes, but not icky. (As if it makes much difference, but I dislike having words put in my mouth.)